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2022 World Cup... gonna ruin the European Season

parklane1 said:
Your grandad was right about Best he had everything, and in those days every opposing player he played against used to kick brick out of him but he just got up and and smiled at them. I played against him in the youth sides ( City and Utd) and he was on another planet to the rest of us. A local paper ( MEN) took a photo of him after one game in his pants and his whole body was covered in bruises from all the kicks and tackles he took.

And as you say calling a player the greatest of all time is difficult, for a start in todays game players do not have to worry about taking kicks from the opposite side and do not have to play on pitches that look like bombsites after bad weather. They are great players in all eras but compering who was/is the best is a guessing game and i suppose depends on what eras you have seen in real life.
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Nice, that must be some experience to look back on to?

I agree with your post, it's also impossible to compare because the best player I have ever seen more than once is Baresi bar none, absolutely phenomenal talent and me and the old man went to Italy alot during the Gazza years and saw him alot, but defenders never get the props they deserve (said as an old defender)

Same for GKs, never seen a talent like the great Dane but I suppose it's seen as slightly Vanilla and not sexy for the masses to plump for a GK as a GOAT (I hate that term BTW).
 
It's not easy to compare players from different eras in terms of measuring them against the other players at their time, but against each other? Easy. Fotball and sportsmen evole and get better and better. Even an average player would run rings around players from the 60's. Measured against each other, Messi is better than Maradona and everyone else in probably every single department, but is Messi better than Maradona compared to other players in their playing time? That's more debatable.
But football has come a long way.

A Danish GK coach made a good point on that, as he had coached both Peter and Kasper Schmeichel, and he said there was no contest that Kasper was a better GK then his father, but measured up against other GK's of their time, Peter was better. But technically, physically and overall level, he said Kasper was way better
 
Kandi1977 said:
It's not easy to compare players from different eras in terms of measuring them against the other players at their time, but against each other? Easy. Fotball and sportsmen evole and get better and better. Even an average player would run rings around players from the 60's. Measured against each other, Messi is better than Maradona and everyone else in probably every single department, but is Messi better than Maradona compared to other players in their playing time? That's more debatable.
But football has come a long way.

A Danish GK coach made a good point on that, as he had coached both Peter and Kasper Schmeichel, and he said there was no contest that Kasper was a better GK then his father, but measured up against other GK's of their time, Peter was better. But technically, physically and overall level, he said Kasper was way better
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But surely that still makes it a non comparable unless your making a fairer comparison which would be could a Maradona even improve in modern conditions with better facilities more professional game and better conditions in terms of playing surfaces and ref protection and for me, as with many players, the answer is a resounding yes.

Or look the other way, would Messi be as effective in the 60s, 70s, 80s working in the same conditions with less advancements in player care etc?

The GK example you give would be based on what's been available to Kasper from his young age which as aided his level more than pure ability. If his Dad was playing today his level would be even higher than when he played and he would be the best in the world for the reasons mentioned

That's why it's still impossible to compare players on player
 
Grays_1890 said:
Decent post sir

Ronaldo MK2 is obviously an outstanding talent but the "all look at me" act and recent actions detract from his greatness, he is a pillock now.

I definitely it hard to compare people from the ages for a number of the reasons you mention and there are so many reasons for and against everyone. My Grandad, Spurs fan swore Best was the Best he ever saw and he saw most of the comparables from the 60s -80s but his shorter self destructive life added to the fact he played for NI means he won't ever be mentioned in the same sentences.

Maradona at Napoli taken a provincial team to the league title against an emerging great like AC Milan...Two time CL winners in the same span and very good star packed Juve etc...hard to compare in my opinion to playing for Real and Barce that Ronaldo and Messi played for in a two team league, for already established super powers....but again the short time span works against him.

It's what makes calling the greatest impossible for me
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Good points re Maradona. I do think La Liga is slightly better than we give it credit for. Atletico Madrid were always a tricky side under Simeone and even won the league during Messi’s heyday. Valencia and Sevilla were also very good sides. I think Barca and Real would have finished 1st and 2nd in any league in the world at the peak of their powers.

Agree on the last point. Very hard to compare todays era to Maradona, before my time. You can only compare players from the same era and for me it’s

1. Messi
2. Ronaldo
3. Zidane
4. Xavi
5. Fat Ronaldo
 
its takes generations to weed out corruption at the national level.
you can't just use an international event to stop all corruption... sometimes its endemic to the culture.

i think that fifa is doing the right thing in bringing football to less developed countries to raise awareness of the game and to inject some infrastructure for football.

yes, fifa should try the best to ensure that it is corruption free and maybe they need a separate report card to determine how well funds were used and if global health and safety standards are met objectively... as a learning point and not to condemn.

great to see the home crowd unite several nations in support of morocco's run - that in itself is a great outcome if you think about how fragmented that part of the world is.
 
metalgear said:
its takes generations to weed out corruption at the national level.
you can't just use an international event to stop all corruption... sometimes its endemic to the culture.

i think that fifa is doing the right thing in bringing football to less developed countries to raise awareness of the game and to inject some infrastructure for football.

yes, fifa should try the best to ensure that it is corruption free and maybe they need a separate report card to determine how well funds were used and if global health and safety standards are met objectively... as a learning point and not to condemn.

great to see the home crowd unite several nations in support of morocco's run - that in itself is a great outcome if you think about how fragmented that part of the world is.
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Corruption was (perhaps still is?) endemic to FIFA too. This wasn't FIFA trying to weed out corruption, this was FIFA being corrupt.

Agree that the World Cup should be brought to different parts of the world.

Going by independent reports thousands died building the infrastructure for the World Cup. Hundreds going by Qatari reports. Hundreds of thousands (I think) more suffered in horrible and dangerous conditions. FIFA did what about it exactly? Not nearly enough that's for sure. I think that's deserving of condemnation.

People working in horrible conditions, not being allowed to change jobs or leave. Many dying in the process. Some of them not even getting the pay they were promised, never mind adequate pay and freedom. I really think slavery is an adequate description.

That's what built the World Cup. A World Cup corruptly awarded. Qatar were the hosts, but this is FIFA's tournament. In a fair world this would carry a prison sentence. In a less fair world you'd lose your job. We live in an even less fair world. But at least there can be condemnation from the outside.
 
You can see how desperate Messi’s teammates were to help him win the World Cup. Whereas Ronaldo’s teammates seem to put up with him because he helps his teams win things. Don’t want to keep beating him when he’s down, but I just don’t think his teammates have the same warmth for him that Messi inspires. I’m a strong believer in going out on a high and Messi has every trophy now but the selfish part of me wants him to change his mind and continue playing for Argentina as he’s clearly still got the brain and the effectiveness to drag a team to finals, even if he’s lost a yard or two of pace.
 
Grays_1890 said:
But surely that still makes it a non comparable unless your making a fairer comparison which would be could a Maradona even improve in modern conditions with better facilities more professional game and better conditions in terms of playing surfaces and ref protection and for me, as with many players, the answer is a resounding yes.

Or look the other way, would Messi be as effective in the 60s, 70s, 80s working in the same conditions with less advancements in player care etc?

The GK example you give would be based on what's been available to Kasper from his young age which as aided his level more than pure ability. If his Dad was playing today his level would be even higher than when he played and he would be the best in the world for the reasons mentioned

That's why it's still impossible to compare players on player
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N ail on the head.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Nice, that must be some experience to look back on to?

I agree with your post, it's also impossible to compare because the best player I have ever seen more than once is Baresi bar none, absolutely phenomenal talent and me and the old man went to Italy alot during the Gazza years and saw him alot, but defenders never get the props they deserve (said as an old defender)

Same for GKs, never seen a talent like the great Dane but I suppose it's seen as slightly Vanilla and not sexy for the masses to plump for a GK as a GOAT (I hate that term BTW).
Click to expand...
Goalkeepers are an interesting one. It wasn't really until the 2000s that the view of GKs changed from being expected to be excellent away from a GK making great saves as being a bonus.
I'm a huge fan of Peter Schmiechel (even if i can't spell his name!) - for you what makes him better than Buffon?

(Nuts that Buffon is still playing in Serie B at 44!)
 
Jurgen the German said:
You can see how desperate Messi’s teammates were to help him win the World Cup. Whereas Ronaldo’s teammates seem to put up with him because he helps his teams win things. Don’t want to keep beating him when he’s down, but I just don’t think his teammates have the same warmth for him that Messi inspires. I’m a strong believer in going out on a high and Messi has every trophy now but the selfish part of me wants him to change his mind and continue playing for Argentina as he’s clearly still got the brain and the effectiveness to drag a team to finals, even if he’s lost a yard or two of pace.
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Would love to see him again in 4 years. Playing however much his body could handle. Even if it's just 10 minutes at the end of some games.

But probably better to end on a high. Walk away carrying the trophy, the legacy, and leaving us with the memories of the sheer greatness he had.

I think the entire Argentina team, along with the nation, embraced Messi. Literally and figuratively.

Lost count of the number of times he was closest to the opponent on the ball and Alvarez or someone would run past him to do the defensive work leaving Messi with the energy to attack when they could. It was weird and beautiful. As you say they were all inspired by him, in a way very few players have or can inspire a team.
 
monkeybarry said:
Goalkeepers are an interesting one. It wasn't really until the 2000s that the view of GKs changed from being expected to be excellent away from a GK making great saves as being a bonus.
I'm a huge fan of Peter Schmiechel (even if i can't spell his name!) - for you what makes him better than Buffon?

(Nuts that Buffon is still playing in Serie B at 44!)
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Buffon is one of the all time greats so the margin would be tiny TBH. Maybe its seeing one more than the other although I saw alot of Buffon, but I just feel what the great Dane did for United, the saves he made at a time when they were in transition to the great side that frankly he had no right to make at times, no doubt Buffon did that too but the influence I mention just nicks it for me.

Been some amazing keepers in my time though
 
braineclipse said:
Would love to see him again in 4 years. Playing however much his body could handle. Even if it's just 10 minutes at the end of some games.

But probably better to end on a high. Walk away carrying the trophy, the legacy, and leaving us with the memories of the sheer greatness he had.

I think the entire Argentina team, along with the nation, embraced Messi. Literally and figuratively.

Lost count of the number of times he was closest to the opponent on the ball and Alvarez or someone would run past him to do the defensive work leaving Messi with the energy to attack when they could. It was weird and beautiful. As you say they were all inspired by him, in a way very few players have or can inspire a team.
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There is a video doing the rounds on social media of a bloke sitting in a pub (pretty sure he’s English) crying moments after Argentina win the shootout. I don’t know any other athletes who could evoke such emotions. Even people who don’t like Argentina wanted Messi to win. On the flip side, people root against Portugal because they want Ronaldo to lose, and these people have nothing against Portugal and have no other reason to root for them to lose.

Let’s not forget also how much pressure Messi has been under to deliver the World Cup and to follow in Maradona’s footsteps. He didn’t choose to be his heir apparent. Imagine having that weight on your shoulders. And you can see how much it means to Messi to have won it for his country. Thank GHod he come out of retirement in 2016 as he even said it felt like it wasn’t meant to be.
 
I agree it's hard to compare players from different eras, pre1970's the pitches and balls were totally different as were the interpretation of the rules, Parklane was right when he wrote Best got kicked heavily in ever game and Pele was systematically assassinated in the 1966 World Cup.
 
Grays_1890 said:
But surely that still makes it a non comparable unless your making a fairer comparison which would be could a Maradona even improve in modern conditions with better facilities more professional game and better conditions in terms of playing surfaces and ref protection and for me, as with many players, the answer is a resounding yes.

Or look the other way, would Messi be as effective in the 60s, 70s, 80s working in the same conditions with less advancements in player care etc?

The GK example you give would be based on what's been available to Kasper from his young age which as aided his level more than pure ability. If his Dad was playing today his level would be even higher than when he played and he would be the best in the world for the reasons mentioned

That's why it's still impossible to compare players on player
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Messi would not have survived, let alone thrived, in the conditions Maradona faced at his peak. Maradona's physique - thick, stout, low centre of gravity - and mentality borne out of a racism-based persecution complex, let him endure the more tolerated brutal, physical punishment of his era. As skillfully blessed as Messi is - superior to Maradona in many ways - he could never have endured the relentless punishment Maradona suffered and recovered from (see Andoni Goikoetxea, Butcher of Bilbao) to resume performing at a peak level. Messi just doesn't have the physique for that.
 
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