glasgowspur
Nayim
You had post of the year in the bag until that last paragraph.
I just can't congratulate that bunch of cloggers.
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
You had post of the year in the bag until that last paragraph.
I just can't congratulate that bunch of cloggers.
Robspur12
John Lacy
Well, to be fair, @simon harris only mentioned that he wasn't fully convinced by Poch and that he was a reasonable manager with some flaws - hardly the worst sort of criticism one could throw at him, even if I personally disagree. The rest of it, I largely agree with, but then with this bit....
...this is is where I think you're a bit off with your reasoning - although Klopp's Dortmund were the second biggest team in Germany when he left, they certainly weren't when he took over - they were still recovering from their mid-2000s financial crisis that had left them almost bankrupt multiple times, without ownership rights to their own stadium and (at one stage) reliant on a 2m loan from Bayern just to make payroll for a few months. They were a lower mid-table club, occasionally threatened by relegation (in 06-07) - certainly not the club we now associate with the title 'Borussia Dortmund'.
I'd say Klopp inherited a *worse* setup than Poch inherited, and it just does him a bit of a disservice to leave out that context when talking about his time at Dortmund. He took an ailing lower-midtable club fondly recalling past glories and turned them into Bundesliga champions in three years, repeated the feat in his fourth year in charge (setting a new German points record along the way) while adding the DFB Pokal to complete Dortmund's first double, and then spent the next three years getting to multiple finals (including a CL final) - only being denied further silverware by Pep's increasingly dominant Bayern.
He did a magnificent job from a worse starting position than Poch has had at Spurs - okay, we were struggling in a mental malaise, but Poch still inherited a club in full ownership of its own future, about to break ground on a new stadium, possessed of the best training ground in the country and an expensive, talented (if mentally weak) squad. Not to discount the great job Poch has subsequently done in turning us into the youngest, hungriest side in the league on a budget, but Klopp did something magnificent at Dortmund.
How many clubs in the Bundesliga can realistically challenge the top clubs for trophies? I can't say I have your encyclopedic (slightly anoraky
) knowledge of German football. Is it easier to turn around a team in Germany in the footballing sense than it would be in the Premier League? ( I am assuming we are not crediting Klopp with Dortmund 's financial turnaround too otherwise ok he blows away any competition).
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
How many clubs in the Bundesliga can realistically challenge the top clubs for trophies? I can't say I have your encyclopedic (slightly anoraky
Ha! As I said to someone else here a while back, I know nothing about continental football that cannot be equally gained by reading the Grauniad (with its articles by Honigstein about Germany, Lowe about Spain, Bandini about Italy and Auclair about France), and having an FM obsession at some early point in your life.
In regard to how easy it is to turn a struggling club around in Germany, I think Bayern generally win about 50 percent of all available titles, and the rest are distributed among a range of clubs (Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Dortmund, Bremen and Kaiserslautern within the last two decades, iirc) that rise and fall over time. Given that Germany usually has three to four CL spots given their European record, it's thus probably a little easier to get into the CL than it is in England - which presumably acts as a springboard for further success, although that's rarely proven to be the case with many German clubs (Schalke and Leverkusen both qualify regularly, for example, but haven't won much of note despite doing so).
Having said that, I believe Klopp maintained a net negative transfer spend throughout his first four years at Dortmund, so the finances were something he was definitely constrained by. And, to top it off, the two titles and two runners' up finishes he managed represented the most consistent period of Bayern being challenged in the modern era (which I think partly explains why Dortmund are still considered Germany's second-best club today, despite falling behind a bit with Tuchel). So I'd say, on the whole, it's a bit easier for German clubs to hit the heights, but what Klopp did was still relatively unprecedented and (imo) outstrips Poch's achievements here. You can say that, I think, without devaluing Poch.
Gazzasrightboot
Pascal Chimbonda
Well, to be fair, @simon harris only mentioned that he wasn't fully convinced by Poch and that he was a reasonable manager with some flaws - hardly the worst sort of criticism one could throw at him, even if I personally disagree. The rest of it, I largely agree with, but then with this bit....
...this is is where I think you're a bit off with your reasoning - although Klopp's Dortmund were the second biggest team in Germany when he left, they certainly weren't when he took over - they were still recovering from their mid-2000s financial crisis that had left them almost bankrupt multiple times, without ownership rights to their own stadium and (at one stage) reliant on a 2m loan from Bayern just to make payroll for a few months. They were a lower mid-table club, occasionally threatened by relegation (in 06-07) - certainly not the club we now associate with the title 'Borussia Dortmund'.
I'd say Klopp inherited a *worse* setup than Poch inherited, and it just does him a bit of a disservice to leave out that context when talking about his time at Dortmund. He took an ailing lower-midtable club fondly recalling past glories and turned them into Bundesliga champions in three years, repeated the feat in his fourth year in charge (setting a new German points record along the way) while adding the DFB Pokal to complete Dortmund's first double, and then spent the next three years getting to multiple finals (including a CL final) - only being denied further silverware by Pep's increasingly dominant Bayern.
He did a magnificent job from a worse starting position than Poch has had at Spurs - okay, we were struggling in a mental malaise, but Poch still inherited a club in full ownership of its own future, about to break ground on a new stadium, possessed of the best training ground in the country and an expensive, talented (if mentally weak) squad. Not to discount the great job Poch has subsequently done in turning us into the youngest, hungriest side in the league on a budget, but Klopp did something magnificent at Dortmund.
I think you and I have been down this road before Dubai!!
I guess the point I am making is simply, there is only one financially doped club in the Bundesliga. Maybe 2. That's very different to having 5 clubs definitively and substantially bigger in turnover and transfer spend. So, rightly, Klopp is given credit for what he has done. But it is not comparable to the situation in the EPL. Had there been 4 Bayern's, the chances of all of them having an off season is far more reduced. As for Simon Harris, my post was not just directed at him. The negativity is astounding.
If anyone is not convinced by Poch, I want to know by what expectations are they measuring him. I would hazard a guess that they're not very realistic expectations. For quite literally years, we have been crying out for a team that dared to challenge for the title. We got that, in the man's second season. For years we have been crying out for a team that was better in defence without taking away from our attacking talent. We got that in his second season. He is currently in his third season with the club and we are sitting in second. What more can we possibly and realistically expect him to do with the tools and resources at his disposal? Why should anyone be expecting him to do any better?
I just don't get it.
Gazzasrightboot
Pascal Chimbonda
Gazzasrightboot
Pascal Chimbonda
Ha! As I said to someone else here a while back, I know nothing about continental football that cannot be equally gained by reading the Grauniad (with its articles by Honigstein about Germany, Lowe about Spain, Bandini about Italy and Auclair about France), and having an FM obsession at some early point in your life.
In regard to how easy it is to turn a struggling club around in Germany, I think Bayern generally win about 50 percent of all available titles, and the rest are distributed among a range of clubs (Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Dortmund, Bremen and Kaiserslautern within the last two decades, iirc) that rise and fall over time. Given that Germany usually has three to four CL spots given their European record, it's thus probably a little easier to get into the CL than it is in England - which presumably acts as a springboard for further success, although that's rarely proven to be the case with many German clubs (Schalke and Leverkusen both qualify regularly, for example, but haven't won much of note despite doing so).
Having said that, I believe Klopp maintained a net negative transfer spend throughout his first four years at Dortmund, so the finances were something he was definitely constrained by. And, to top it off, the two titles and two runners' up finishes he managed represented the most consistent period of Bayern being challenged in the modern era (which I think partly explains why Dortmund are still considered Germany's second-best club today, despite falling behind a bit with Tuchel). So I'd say, on the whole, it's a bit easier for German clubs to hit the heights, but what Klopp did was still relatively unprecedented and (imo) outstrips Poch's achievements here. You can say that, I think, without devaluing Poch.
Agree with that. But Klopp won the league in his third season with Dortmund? Poch hasn't even been given that time. He finished 6th in his first season and fifth in his second. That's what we should be comparing Poch against.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
I think you and I have been down this road before Dubai!!
Have we? We've had so many engrossing back-and-forths over the past couple of years that I'm fairly sure you're right, but I can't remember the specific instances.
Anyway, I think Dortmund got to the top *regardless* of the financial evenness of the Bundesliga (outside Bayern), not because of it. While their competitors all spent pretty heavily during Klopp's time there, he (iirc) maintained a negative transfer spend right up until his final couple of years, and with a lower wage budget than some of his non-Bayern rivals (Schalke, for example) to boot. Hence, I'm not sure the admittedly more even Bundesliga matters all that much when weighing Klopp's successes, since he still worked at a disadvantage (imo) greater than that which faced Poch when he took over.I agree that Poch is sometimes judged way too harshly relative to what he's had to work with and what he's managed to achieve with us despite the limitations placed upon him (and a *big* one, I think, is our mentality - he's had to work with the shadow of S P U R S I N E S S hanging over him, and it must have been galling for someone like him to manage that). But, having said that, there are areas where he can improve, much like there are areas where many of our young players can definitely improve. His transfer business has been up and down (although when we get it right, we get it f*cking right, as Toby, Dele and co. prove), his approach in Europe and against opponents more prone to tactical adaptation and drilling could use some tightening up...and, perhaps most pertinently, he hasn't yet won anything to cement his place as one of the world's most promising managers. In some cases, it absolutely isn't his fault (he did put out strong sides in Europe, and is putting out strong sides in the FA Cup of late), but in other cases, it absolutely is (like with the League Cup, a competition we consistently turn our noses up at). The last one is a bugbear of mine, and I sincerely hope he rectifies it sooner rather than later.
On the whole, he's been very good for us - Levy definitely the right appointment when he went for Poch in 2014, and he (Poch) will retain my confidence even in the event of a bad future season given the credit he's built up over the past three seasons. But he has flaws, and he also isn't quite the miracle worker that he is definitely sometimes portrayed as (he hasn't yet accrued more points than Redknapp or AVB, he hasn't yet managed to finish above our red neighbors, and he hasn't yet won something - all three would be minor miracles
). It's a case of deserving *qualified* praise and unconditional trust, I think - trust because he's done so well with what he has, but *qualified* praise given that he isn't quite the next Bill Nick just yet.Well, it is Poch's third season, and I think it's fairly clear that the league is out of our reach, so Poch isn't going to outdo Klopp on that score.
Yes, in his first two seasons, Klopp finished upper mid-table. But his starting point (as I mentioned) was lower than what Poch inherited. As of 2014, Tottenham Hotspur, as a club, were an institution with momentum behind them and bold plans ahead of them - the only problem was that the ethos and mentality of the squad, expensively assembled though it was, did not match up to those ambitions. Poch was hired to change that, and to give him full credit, he has done a sterling job - the mentality of the club now is seemingly worlds away from what it was when he arrived, and he has done that on time, on budget and via the use of a core of young and homegrown players that have endeared themselves to the fans in a way that mercenaries or expensive buys could never really have done.But Klopp inherited a club mired in lower mid-table, a club financially skint, forced to rely on youth players and freebies - not by choice, but by absolute necessity. A club which did not own its own historic stadium, and which had drifted a *long* way from its glory days. Thus, what he subsequently did probably holds more weight than what Poch has done - even though Poch has done admirably well too, on his own terms.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
Leicester would have been a godsend this year, not last year.
OK, let's look at it like this. Supposing the likely happens and we don't finish top four or win the FA cup. That represents a step backwards for the club, and I really don't think that would please the supporters or Mr Levy.
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
How is us not finishing top 4 likely???
We're the team in the best form in the division right now
I agree not winning the FA cup would be a disappointment but it's still an 8 horse race at the moment
OK, I shall tell you why. Chelsea will win it. Emirates Marketing Project will definitely finish above us because they have a better side with more depth. Liverpool are stronger than us and have a better manager, and Arsenal always finish above us because it is written by the football Gods. I also believe that Utd will probably finish above us as well. At very best 5th.
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
Wow....
You sure your not a wind up merchant or even an Arsenal fan ??
In fact with that kind of negativity I'm sure you an old school Spurs fan as we seem to attract those who can pick a defeat from the jaws of victory
If Klopp is a better manager how come he can't organise a defence... and the league table shows so far that their not better than us
City's side is so much better that w battered off the park at WHL and they couldn't beat us as him despite playing arguably their best football of the season
United are in their best run in years and have gained zero places in the league
So theirs my counter arguments
Not much of an argument though. Look at what Klopp has achieved in the football world compared to Poch. I agree that we played Emirates Marketing Project off of the park at the Lane, and still managed to claw a draw at their place, but that has no baring on where we will finish compared to them. Like I said before, I am not sure about Utd finishing above us, but the other 4 are a cert.
Oh, because my opinions aren't the same as yours please don't call me an Arsenal fan, it's rather childish
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
It's sarcasm...
Klopp did achieve that I agree with a league he knew... in this league he is making basic errors in his set up which is why their below us
You use the words sure they will finish above us which is find amazing. Even the most negative fans I know don't even think that at the moment
I'd hate to know what you thought of the team 10 years ago when we were brick
no it doesnt
Gazzasrightboot
Pascal Chimbonda
So please answer my post which is what are your expectations of where we should be finishing. What is our GHod given right to finish in the top 4 when nothing about has, been top 4 at all. There are 5 bigger teams than us in revenue, more in wage bill and more who outspend us. So why should you, or any other Spurs fan, expect us to be winning the league or even finishing top 4.
What is childish is just expecting us to be better than what we are without offering any particular reason. If you think we are underachieving, explain it. If you think Poch is underachieving i.e. this team should be top of the league now, then explain why.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
Simon. Do you think we are playing well?
Gazzasrightboot
Pascal Chimbonda
Have we? We've had so many engrossing back-and-forths over the past couple of years that I'm fairly sure you're right, but I can't remember the specific instances.
I agree that Poch is sometimes judged way too harshly relative to what he's had to work with and what he's managed to achieve with us despite the limitations placed upon him (and a *big* one, I think, is our mentality - he's had to work with the shadow of S P U R S I N E S S hanging over him, and it must have been galling for someone like him to manage that). But, having said that, there are areas where he can improve, much like there are areas where many of our young players can definitely improve. His transfer business has been up and down (although when we get it right, we get it f*cking right, as Toby, Dele and co. prove), his approach in Europe and against opponents more prone to tactical adaptation and drilling could use some tightening up...and, perhaps most pertinently, he hasn't yet won anything to cement his place as one of the world's most promising managers. In some cases, it absolutely isn't his fault (he did put out strong sides in Europe, and is putting out strong sides in the FA Cup of late), but in other cases, it absolutely is (like with the League Cup, a competition we consistently turn our noses up at). The last one is a bugbear of mine, and I sincerely hope he rectifies it sooner rather than later.
On the whole, he's been very good for us - Levy definitely the right appointment when he went for Poch in 2014, and he (Poch) will retain my confidence even in the event of a bad future season given the credit he's built up over the past three seasons. But he has flaws, and he also isn't quite the miracle worker that he is definitely sometimes portrayed as (he hasn't yet accrued more points than Redknapp or AVB, he hasn't yet managed to finish above our red neighbors, and he hasn't yet won something - all three would be minor miracles
Well, it is Poch's third season, and I think it's fairly clear that the league is out of our reach, so Poch isn't going to outdo Klopp on that score.
But Klopp inherited a club mired in lower mid-table, a club financially skint, forced to rely on youth players and freebies - not by choice, but by absolute necessity. A club which did not own its own historic stadium, and which had drifted a *long* way from its glory days. Thus, what he subsequently did probably holds more weight than what Poch has done - even though Poch has done admirably well too, on his own terms.
Well we've been down this road in the context of determining who the best chairman in football is. I think you gave props to Dortmund, Juve and some other massive clubs who are not comparable to us
p). Look I'm not taking anything away from Klopp. What he did at Dortmund was pretty damn good and there aren't a lot of people who can say they have done the same or better. But that's a pretty high bar to be measuring, much less expecting, someone to operate at.
Poch finished 5 in his first season (he inherited a particularly underperforming squad with attitude problems), third in his second (after being the only team to really challenge the eventual winners) and is currently in second place in the league in March in his third season. He has also currently got the best defensive record in the league, and I think got it in his second season as well. Our goals scored is also not too shabby.
Even as I write that, I cannot quite believe that there are people that are doubting this man's ability. Absolutely bonkers. Completely and utterly ludicrous. If the expectation is that he should be doing better, then I am waiting for someone to explain to me WHY we should be expecting that. All that has been offered is that someone did something better in another league who just happens to be the manager of a team in our current league at the moment. That same team has been one of the most inconsistent teams. World beaters one day, and mid-table mediocrity the next.
Robspur12
John Lacy
This post tells me you are a gooner. Which is fine btw but it would be nice for you to be open about it so we can debate properly.