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Cynical fouls...

the dza

Christian Ziege
We should make more of them. Yesterday's goal against us, after Bentaleb had his brain fart, it would have been nice to see someone get chopped, yellow card taken and the attack broken up. Maybe we could have chopped Young before he was able to cross it into the box?

We never seem to break up attacks in this way and we really should, imo.
 
We should make more of them. Yesterday's goal against us, after Bentaleb had his brain fart, it would have been nice to see someone get chopped, yellow card taken and the attack broken up. Maybe we could have chopped Young before he was able to cross it into the box?

We never seem to break up attacks in this way and we really should, imo.

True. We always seems to be scared of making those ugly challenges. In fact, felt Walker was too scared to tackle Rooney from behind, worried he might concede the penalty and ultimately scoring the own goal.
 
I don't mind someone 'taking one for the team' so much, but I draw the line there. I note that feigning injury to get an opponent sent off is going to be punishable by a retrospective ban from this season, and I sincerely hope that leeway is available to include divers.
 
Ashley Williams and Cork had two of those against Chelsea last night. Williams stopped Hazard creating a possible scoring chance. I don't like it, but I guess it's a big part of the game. Both Swansea players was rightly booked, Azpilicueta didnt' - even if he grabbed the ball and hold on to it for a good fews seconds when Swansea could have taken a quick throw in. I guess Chelsea players will be harder to book for the refs... :(
 
Schweinsteigers yellow card is a prime example of how a seasoned player deals with a dangerous counter. Just took his legs and the yc, then regrouped
 
I would really prefer us not to have to resort to these type of tactics, but recognise that other teams are better at it than us. I like the fact that we have below average capabilities at cheating.
 
I would really prefer us not to have to resort to these type of tactics, but recognise that other teams are better at it than us. I like the fact that we have below average capabilities at cheating.

that's the thing, everyone else is going to do it, it's no different to arsenal saying we'll only shoot from inside the 6 yard box after everyone has had two touches
 
I would really prefer us not to have to resort to these type of tactics, but recognise that other teams are better at it than us. I like the fact that we have below average capabilities at cheating.

Making a foul isn't cheating. Its a defender acknowledging the consequences and taking explicit action within the rules of the game. There's no moral ambiguity. Cynical fouls are also good in that they are usually deliberately clumsy, so actually risk injury less than competitive challenges

Diving is far worse. It's purely deceitful.
 
Schweinsteigers yellow card is a prime example of how a seasoned player deals with a dangerous counter. Just took his legs and the yc, then as regrouped
As Gutterboy said, Delle Alli did this soon after coming on... scythed down someone on the wing... Luke Shaw I guess.
 
We should make more of them. Yesterday's goal against us, after Bentaleb had his brain fart, it would have been nice to see someone get chopped, yellow card taken and the attack broken up. Maybe we could have chopped Young before he was able to cross it into the box?

We never seem to break up attacks in this way and we really should, imo.
Sad when the only way to win is to cheat. Maybe we're not that far off it but the day we decide to become that systematically cynical, I'm out.
Making a foul isn't cheating. Its a defender acknowledging the consequences and taking explicit action within the rules of the game. There's no moral ambiguity. Cynical fouls are also good in that they are usually deliberately clumsy, so actually risk injury less than competitive challenges

Diving is far worse. It's purely deceitful.
Deliberately up-ending someone once they have got the better of you was, is and always will be cheating. I remember the way Leeds won the League Championship back in the day through systematic cheating, what a nasty ugly, cynical lot they were.

Is that really how you want your Tottenham to be remembered? We have a proud tradition of beating the other lot because we are better than them, not because we're more cynical.
 
Sad when the only way to win is to cheat. Maybe we're not that far off it but the day we decide to become that systematically cynical, I'm out.

Deliberately up-ending someone once they have got the better of you was, is and always will be cheating. I remember the way Leeds won the League Championship back in the day through systematic cheating, what a nasty ugly, cynical lot they were.

Is that really how you want your Tottenham to be remembered? We have a proud tradition of beating the other lot because we are better than them, not because we're more cynical.

Couldn't agree more.
 
Sad when the only way to win is to cheat. Maybe we're not that far off it but the day we decide to become that systematically cynical, I'm out.

Deliberately up-ending someone once they have got the better of you was, is and always will be cheating. I remember the way Leeds won the League Championship back in the day through systematic cheating, what a nasty ugly, cynical lot they were.

Is that really how you want your Tottenham to be remembered? We have a proud tradition of beating the other lot because we are better than them, not because we're more cynical.

IMO, we've always had players who could sort out the opposition when necessary, from Mackay to Roberts to Edgar Davids. Chopping down a player to stop an attack is nothing new, but our team is a bit young and naive and without a bit of ruthlessness, being better for skill alone won't get the job done. Fouling is part of the game and always has been.
 
that's the thing, everyone else is going to do it, it's no different to Ar5ena1 saying we'll only shoot from inside the 6 yard box after everyone has had two touches

I don't disagree with you and it is part of the game and plenty of teams have won things by being very good at it. I'd just rather we were not that way. I don't want to see our players crowd and con the ref and I don't want any other supporters to be able to say that we were not the better team. It's purist, fantastical etc.... but I'd much rather be remembered for being a footballing team rather than a cynical team.
 
Our preferred motto is 'the game is about glory'. If we were really true to our motto, we wouldn't be happy with being run in the most cautious, hesitant, risk-free manner imaginable, with two league cups in twenty years to show for it.

And if we're willing to compromise on that, I certainly think we should be willing to compromise on doing the dirty to secure games more often. It's the lesser of two contradictions, imo: and if it helps us rid ourselves of the 'lads, it's Tottenham' jibe that even Ferguson used to motivate his side to run all over us (southern softies that we are), then I think it's well worth it.
 
Our preferred motto is 'the game is about glory'. If we were really true to our motto, we wouldn't be happy with being run in the most cautious, hesitant, risk-free manner imaginable, with two league cups in twenty years to show for it.

And if we're willing to compromise on that, I certainly think we should be willing to compromise on doing the dirty to secure games more often. It's the lesser of two contradictions, imo: and if it helps us rid ourselves of the 'lads, it's Tottenham' jibe that even Ferguson used to motivate his side to run all over us (southern softies that we are), then I think it's well worth it.

And our most successful period of league finishes in certainly my lifetime. Add to that some finals, semi-finals, it's not like we were not trying, so I don't know how we have compromised on that?
 
And our most successful period of league finishes in certainly my lifetime. Add to that some finals, semi-finals, it's not like we were not trying, so I don't know how we have compromised on that?

It's beside the point of this thread, but we've compromised precisely because of how unwilling we seem to be to take that extra risk at crucial times. If the game really is about glory, we by all accounts should be gunning for it at every opportunity, no? Not accumulating cash slowly with the hope that, in ten or fifteen years, we can begin clawing back the trophy deficit that has opened up between us and the rest of the sides we should be trying to compete with. We really aren't trying to be glorious, if we're content with bubbling away in 5th or 6th place with large profits year on year and bargains like Stambouli instead of the really game-changing players, while we save money for a stadium that would have looked so much more brilliantly captivating if we had sustained the brief peak of success we had in the 2009-2012 period while heading into it.

Sigh. Personally, mottos like that (and reading about inspiring men like Blanchflower and Nicholson) got me into supporting Spurs in the first place, all those years ago. As a fan based mostly overseas, I never got accustomed to the mighty roar of the Lane, or the tingling walk down to the stadium on matchday,or the glory nights under the floodlights: for me, most of the time, my connection to the club was solely maintained by a flickering TV in the evenings, the odd match report in Gulf News or Khaleej Times (on the rare occasions when we were featured), and being fed information on my club by my gloating United, Arsenal and Chelsea mates with better internet connections and computers than the one my family could afford.

But for me, that never mattered. Because I'd fallen head over heels in love with what this club represented: to me, we were the slayers of the cynical, the bold knights in purest white riding forth to glory, sweeping all before in blazes of beautiful, relentless play. To me, the figures in our history stood tall, towering titans of the game: philosophers and visionaries to a man. To my friends I left the Cantonas, Henrys, Vieras and Makeleles: my pleasure was derived from imagining how stern and determined Bill Nicholson must have looked in his heyday, cursing the tragedy that deprived us of John White, and admiring the honest, captivating nature of Danny Blanchflower (this interview that I recently came across made me happier than you can imagine: it was the first time I'd actually heard him talk, and having your assumptions about how your heroes sound and conduct themselves confirmed... is a truly brilliant thing). My happiness was curling up with The Essential History of Tottenham Hotspur, or Against All Odds, and imagining how things must have been. And of course, my naive wonder about how every other fan could possibly not admire us for out ethos and our wild, wacky ways remained strong all the way through the early and mid-2000's, those energetic and wild years.

In short, I fell head over heels for those mottos, and those soundbites. Gradually, however, we ceased to follow them, in my opinion. And, as you probably can tell, that deeply saddens me....more than any amount of glorious floundering in pursuit of those great mottos could have done. :(

Like I said, all that's irrelevant to this thread, though.

To get back on topic, we've already largely ceased following our mottos (for now, perhaps). Becoming more cynical and at least sticking it up to the bastards who consider us 'southern softies' is the least we could do.
 
It's beside the point of this thread, but we've compromised precisely because of how unwilling we seem to be to take that extra risk at crucial times. If the game really is about glory, we by all accounts should be gunning for it at every opportunity, no? Not accumulating cash slowly with the hope that, in ten or fifteen years, we can begin clawing back the trophy deficit that has opened up between us and the rest of the sides we should be trying to compete with. We really aren't trying to be glorious, if we're content with bubbling away in 5th or 6th place with large profits year on year and bargains like Stambouli instead of the really game-changing players, while we save money for a stadium that would have looked so much more brilliantly captivating if we had sustained the brief peak of success we had in the 2009-2012 period while heading into it.

Sigh. Personally, mottos like that (and reading about inspiring men like Blanchflower and Nicholson) got me into supporting Spurs in the first place, all those years ago. As a fan based mostly overseas, I never got accustomed to the mighty roar of the Lane, or the tingling walk down to the stadium on matchday,or the glory nights under the floodlights: for me, most of the time, my connection to the club was solely maintained by a flickering TV in the evenings, the odd match report in Gulf News or Khaleej Times (on the rare occasions when we were featured), and being fed information on my club by my gloating United, Ar5ena1 and Chel53a mates with better internet connections and computers than the one my family could afford.

But for me, that never mattered. Because I'd fallen head over heels in love with what this club represented: to me, we were the slayers of the cynical, the bold knights in purest white riding forth to glory, sweeping all before in blazes of beautiful, relentless play. To me, the figures in our history stood tall, towering titans of the game: philosophers and visionaries to a man. To my friends I left the Cantonas, Henrys, Vieras and Makeleles: my pleasure was derived from imagining how stern and determined Bill Nicholson must have looked in his heyday, cursing the tragedy that deprived us of John White, and admiring the honest, captivating nature of Danny Blanchflower (this interview that I recently came across made me happier than you can imagine: it was the first time I'd actually heard him talk, and having your assumptions about how your heroes sound and conduct themselves confirmed... is a truly brilliant thing). My happiness was curling up with The Essential History of Tottenham Hotspur, or Against All Odds, and imagining how things must have been. And of course, my naive wonder about how every other fan could possibly not admire us for out ethos and our wild, wacky ways remained strong all the way through the early and mid-2000's, those energetic and wild years.

In short, I fell head over heels for those mottos, and those soundbites. Gradually, however, we ceased to follow them, in my opinion. And, as you probably can tell, that deeply saddens me....more than any amount of glorious floundering in pursuit of those great mottos could have done. :(

Like I said, all that's irrelevant to this thread, though.

To get back on topic, we've already largely ceased following our mottos (for now, perhaps). Becoming more cynical and at least sticking it up to the bastards who consider us 'southern softies' is the least we could do.

All the same reasons why I support the same club. With regards to accumulating cash and having large profits year on year, I can honestly say from reading the accounts that this is not what we are doing. Yes last year showed a large profit, but all of this profit (and then some) has been ploughed back into the stadium. You can see this from the assets under construction. The anomalies of accounting will mean that these don't appear on our profit or loss until they are complete and then they will be depreciated over the life of that asset. Believe me, I would not be happy if I felt that the owners of the club were hoarding cash and not reinvesting. This is why I am content bubbling around 5th or 6th, because this is as good as we are going to get until we can financially compete with the big boys. Then we will see some epic signings, and see us really challenge.
 
IMO, we've always had players who could sort out the opposition when necessary, from Mackay to Roberts to Edgar Davids. Chopping down a player to stop an attack is nothing new, but our team is a bit young and naive and without a bit of ruthlessness, being better for skill alone won't get the job done. Fouling is part of the game and always has been.

Of course we have and always will, no question about it, and I've been as chuffed as the best of them when it's happened.

But that is not remotely the same as a adopting a premeditated cynical plan like United did against us at OT last season, when they systematically took out any Tottenham player that got within 50 yards of their box.

I
 
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