• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Cameron for Cash

Hootnow said:
The question though was what good has come out of our time in the EU? To say the EU has been solely good or to dismiss its faults is silly and hyperbolic. To present it as an organisation that has done 'nothing, zip, sweet fa' in your own words, is similarly so.

And how much are the population really given a say on policies? We vote at a general election, mostly based on our own personal interests and prejudices, rarely changing our preferences on the actual performances of the parties (and this is done by people on both sides of the political spectrum). Sometimes we don't get the govt we voted for. No-one in the country voted for a Conservative-Lib Dem coalition. That is what we have. But either way, the government then runs more in a dictatorial fashion than one in which the public are consulted on every issue for the subsequent 5 years. Then we have another election and elect another set of people who'll rule with little real input from the millions of voters for the 5 years or so after. This means that they can also lie about their policies before the elections, then do as they wish after.
Click to expand...

agree with this, and yes the question was "what good has come out of the EU".
im sure we could produce a list just as long for the question "what bad has come out of it" also.

for me these are not the right questions however re; EU membership

the questions should be;

i. what would the future be outside of the EU (we are in it, like it or not)

ii. what decisions would a UK Govt have made around the same areas that the EU have legislated on. If we hadnt have signed up (i know it wasnt the EU per se, but that is now where we are), what would the country look like now? The US? France? Germany?

These are the questions people should ask themselves when considering their position on pro/con EU - and dismiss the xenephobia that is "being ruled by Brussels"
 
scaramanga said:
In the interest of clarity, I'll make the point for the third time.

In the modern world, with (mostly) free and open communication, an employer that treats its employees poorly will struggle. I have no interest in being able to mistreat employees, I never have and never will. As I stated above, the only way to have a motivated workforce is to treat them fairly. Without a motivated workforce, you may as well close your doors now.

Modern management theory evolved way past what you describe perfectly well without the aid of unions. There is no need for them to unduly skew the labour market and it will work perfectly fine without them.
Click to expand...

i have a great hatred for unions as they stand now - there ability to hold parts of industry to ransom and be a block on progression

however, i do think there is a place for a more regulated union system that allows (and ensures) unions perform their task - which should NOT be to "get the best for their members", it should be "to protect their members".

ultimately a union should have the best interested of business at heart as that creates happy employees; however unions have involved into nothing more than business' themselves, so their values become alligned with profit, profit created by becoming an "essential" part of the pyche of people who think the unions can "get them a better deal"
 
monkeybarry said:
i have a great hatred for unions as they stand now - there ability to hold parts of industry to ransom and be a block on progression

however, i do think there is a place for a more regulated union system that allows (and ensures) unions perform their task - which should NOT be to "get the best for their members", it should be "to protect their members".

ultimately a union should have the best interested of business at heart as that creates happy employees; however unions have involved into nothing more than business' themselves, so their values become alligned with profit, profit created by becoming an "essential" part of the pyche of people who think the unions can "get them a better deal"
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, there was a part of employment law passed a couple of years ago that is supposed to do just that - it was widely ignored and wasn't given much attention.

Employers are required to consult with staff or representatives in a number of areas. Unions being used correctly could represent the staff in these consultations, which usually are as useful to employers as they are to employees (they certainly have been in my experience). The major problems begin when a load of smaller unions band together and create a union that is bigger and more powerful than many of the companies their staff work for - that is a balance of power that no sane-minded person could defend.

IMO there are two functions that a union (or more appropriately, a representative of staff) needs to perform.

1) They need an understanding of the bureaucratic things that your average employee hasn't got (H&S, employment law, etc)
2) To hold a sinking fund for members should they need financial backing
 
scaramanga said:
Intelligently is probably going a little far, but like you, I'm intrigued to hear what parklane knows that the basic laws of economics don't.
Click to expand...

I have said my piece and the reasons i believe them, as i have said i am neither a lover or a hater of unions but as a employer i can see that they have a important part to play. If others feel different then so be it but i do not feel there is anymore point in debate with those with entrenched views.
 
scaramanga said:
Funnily enough, there was a part of employment law passed a couple of years ago that is supposed to do just that - it was widely ignored and wasn't given much attention.

Employers are required to consult with staff or representatives in a number of areas. Unions being used correctly could represent the staff in these consultations, which usually are as useful to employers as they are to employees (they certainly have been in my experience). The major problems begin when a load of smaller unions band together and create a union that is bigger and more powerful than many of the companies their staff work for - that is a balance of power that no sane-minded person could defend.

IMO there are two functions that a union (or more appropriately, a representative of staff) needs to perform.

1) They need an understanding of the bureaucratic things that your average employee hasn't got (H&S, employment law, etc)
2) To hold a sinking fund for members should they need financial backing
Click to expand...

i think that post perfectly highlights why unions are needed, but im an ammended way.

i think most agree they are currently a menace.
legislation was put in place but ignored - ergo it was not effective/appropriate legislation
therefore a middle ground needs finding - in the guise we have both stated i think!
(that shuold make everyone, except those at the very top of the unions, happy!! right, im off to think about my utopia)
 
Yeah employers will look after their workers and treat them well, because if they dont , well then they will suffer. The problem with that simplistic line is that many employers look for a short term advantage, to boost profit. They hire cheap, unskilled workers (read un unionised ) to achieve this.
I am a teacher and I regularly have girls... 15 and 16 year olds asking me if their wages are right. Nine times out of ten, they are being horribly ripped off and then there is the sexual harrassment they have to deal with. So don't tell me about the evil of unions and how "in todays world" they are no longer relevant. Employers are in a relative position of power and the only way that a worker can stick up for themselves is collectively. I always direct these students to the Ministry of Employmment to get these rip off merchants investigated and then I advise them to join their union.
 
Yeah employers will look after their workers and treat them well, because if they dont , well then they will suffer. The problem with that simplistic line is that many employers look for a short term advantage, to boost profit. They hire cheap, unskilled workers (read un unionised ) underpay them and often make them work in unsafe conditions to achieve this.
I am a teacher and I regularly have girls... 15 and 16 year olds asking me if their wages are right. Nine times out of ten, they are being horribly ripped off and then there is the sexual harrassment they have to deal with. So don't tell me about the evil of unions and how "in todays world" they are no longer relevant. Employers are in a relative position of power and the only way that a worker can stick up for themselves is collectively. I always direct these students to the Ministry of Employmment to get these rip off merchants investigated and then I advise them to join their union.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Yeah employers will look after their workers and treat them well, because if they dont , well then they will suffer. The problem with that simplistic line is that many employers look for a short term advantage, to boost profit. They hire cheap, unskilled workers (read un unionised ) to achieve this.
I am a teacher and I regularly have girls... 15 and 16 year olds asking me if their wages are right. Nine times out of ten, they are being horribly ripped off and then there is the sexual harrassment they have to deal with. So don't tell me about the evil of unions and how "in todays world" they are no longer relevant. Employers are in a relative position of power and the only way that a worker can stick up for themselves is collectively. I always direct these students to the Ministry of Employmment to get these rip off merchants investigated and then I advise them to join their union.
Click to expand...

But your girls don't need a union to address any of that. As a teacher you should understand the ramifications in todays society for sexual harrassment. If you had any sense you would be telling your girls about the advatages of employment law in modern society and pointing them to sources such as this:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/Employmenttribunals/DG_10028122

An employer such as the big supermarkets, where I'd imagine a lot of your students are employed, can even take their grievences to HR well in advance of needing to do anything like contact an employment law professional (many of whom follow the ambulance chasers mantra of "No Win No Fee").

Now that most large employers have HR departments duty bound to provide staff with advice on these channels, actually, the one and only area that unions would be beneficial is the one place that they don't often exist, with small employers.
 
monkeybarry said:
and your suggested alternative?
Click to expand...

I personally have never understood why people think that they are owed something for nothing, or that business (big or small) should still pay them for no output. Absolutely absurd notion. Alternatively I think it's absurd that companies are allowed to get away with paying a salary and expect that person to work long hours unpaid. You should get paid for the hours you do. Go on holiday? Don't get paid. Work an extra 20 hours that week? You get paid. Really is that simple.
 
Im not against maternity leave but like a lot of things it has gotten to big(long) also i will never get my head round the bloke taking time off. I picked the wife and lad up from the hospital and went back to work in the afternoon, absolutely shattered by the end of the day, but i was on a price. Always on price work.
 
monkeybarry said:
agree with this, and yes the question was "what good has come out of the EU".
im sure we could produce a list just as long for the question "what bad has come out of it" also.

for me these are not the right questions however re; EU membership

the questions should be;

i. what would the future be outside of the EU (we are in it, like it or not)

ii. what decisions would a UK Govt have made around the same areas that the EU have legislated on. If we hadnt have signed up (i know it wasnt the EU per se, but that is now where we are), what would the country look like now? The US? France? Germany?

These are the questions people should ask themselves when considering their position on pro/con EU - and dismiss the xenephobia that is "being ruled by Brussels"
Click to expand...

1) A lot better off financially with a better quality of life.
2) Less taxation, less stupid health and safety initiatives that cost industry millions (and therefore employ less people). Not so many stupid employment laws, like the workers time directive or the two year contracting rule leading to once again industry being cheaper to run, more profitable and therefore able to employ more people. No ridiculous fudging human rights act (what an absolute dog turd that is).

What makes me laugh about the EU is that they make the rules and we follow them.....whilst they ignore the rules themelves!!!
 
japenesegardenlover said:
Im not against maternity leave but like a lot of things it has gotten to big(long) also i will never get my head round the bloke taking time off. I picked the wife and lad up from the hospital and went back to work in the afternoon, absolutely shattered by the end of the day, but i was on a price. Always on price work.
Click to expand...

I think paid maternity leave is a selfish disgrace. You have a small sized business and a couple of people go off on maternity and that may end up being the difference between a company being profitable or not and everyone could end up losing their job as a result. I am all for fairness, and fairness is that companies shouldn't be allowed to sack women who get pregnant. But nor should they have to pay for them whilst they are off work. The law should be they hold the woman's position open in the company (backfilling it with a temp/contract worker if necessary) for 12 months. Maternity pay should be a perk, not a given.

I'd like to see us utilise contract/temp workers a lot more as a nation, but unfortunately the EU has fudged that up royally.
 
japenesegardenlover said:
Im not against maternity leave but like a lot of things it has gotten to big(long) also i will never get my head round the bloke taking time off. I picked the wife and lad up from the hospital and went back to work in the afternoon, absolutely shattered by the end of the day, but i was on a price. Always on price work.
Click to expand...

Mate, it's a sham. My family used to employ over 100 people and we gradually worked it down and ditched the business in particular about 3 years ago. Reason being that having staff is a nightmare. All the older generation were marvellous, I loved working with them every day. The young girls though were a nightmare. Not only were they mostly unreliable, they stole stuff, made bogus injury claims it didn't end. The final insult was a girl that we had brought through to management and helped out a lot personally decided to fudge off up the road without a by or leave.

A few months on and she has lost her job and comes knocking. We take her back and a week later she pulls out "I'm pregnant"... Well fudge me sideways, what a nice girl, she'd begged for her job back in order to get maternity leave, ****.

The company was doing OK, but it was brick like that that made us want to close it down and put the money and time into other businesses that didn't employ. We haven't got anyone to speak of now and I'll be keeping it that way.
 
WookieD said:
Mate, it's a sham. My family used to employ over 100 people and we gradually worked it down and ditched the business in particular about 3 years ago. Reason being that having staff is a nightmare. All the older generation were marvellous, I loved working with them every day. The young girls though were a nightmare. Not only were they mostly unreliable, they stole stuff, made bogus injury claims it didn't end. The final insult was a girl that we had brought through to management and helped out a lot personally decided to fudge off up the road without a by or leave.

A few months on and she has lost her job and comes knocking. We take her back and a week later she pulls out "I'm pregnant"... Well fudge me sideways, what a nice girl, she'd begged for her job back in order to get maternity leave, ****.

The company was doing OK, but it was brick like that that made us want to close it down and put the money and time into other businesses that didn't employ. We haven't got anyone to speak of now and I'll be keeping it that way.
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately it's a tale I've heard a fair bit now. The road to hell is paved with good intentions apparently, and those creating these stupid employment laws don't seem to realise all they're actually doing is killing employment.
 
WookieD said:
Mate, it's a sham. My family used to employ over 100 people and we gradually worked it down and ditched the business in particular about 3 years ago. Reason being that having staff is a nightmare. All the older generation were marvellous, I loved working with them every day. The young girls though were a nightmare. Not only were they mostly unreliable, they stole stuff, made bogus injury claims it didn't end. The final insult was a girl that we had brought through to management and helped out a lot personally decided to fudge off up the road without a by or leave.

A few months on and she has lost her job and comes knocking. We take her back and a week later she pulls out "I'm pregnant"... Well fudge me sideways, what a nice girl, she'd begged for her job back in order to get maternity leave, ****.

The company was doing OK, but it was brick like that that made us want to close it down and put the money and time into other businesses that didn't employ. We haven't got anyone to speak of now and I'll be keeping it that way.
Click to expand...

Would she qualify though ? I read something about needing to work for the same employer for 26 weeks before 15 weeks before the due date (or something).

On a completely different note, and not really relevant but i'll put it in here while small businesses are being discussed - i hate them. Always moaning about a bigger company coming along and putting them out of business... great, so they want to get rich by charging us all higher prices? They benefit while the hundreds have to pay more.
 
The Moonlit Knight said:
2) Less taxation, less stupid health and safety initiatives that cost industry millions (and therefore employ less people). Not so many stupid employment laws, like the workers time directive or the two year contracting rule leading to once again industry being cheaper to run, more profitable and therefore able to employ more people. No ridiculous fudging human rights act (what an absolute dog turd that is).

What makes me laugh about the EU is that they make the rules and we follow them.....whilst they ignore the rules themelves!!!
Click to expand...

so basically, the US.
a society where there is no consideration for anyone that doesnt fit into the bracket of "will work hard for long hours every day all year".

last time i checked, there was more to society that than
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back