The Best Album Of All Time - Nirvana v Rage Against the Machine

[Baleforce]

if there was a ballad on RATM that would definitely be points off

 

[stinkfoot]

RATM.

1. Because I love it and it gets the wife feeling reckless.

2. Because I never got into Nirvana and it think it stems from being 14-15 in 1992 and becoming obsessed with Pearl Jam. Then in my young impressionable foolishness, falling for the media seeped feud bull**** of the time and thinking "**** Nirvana" man.

 

[billyiddo]

i think you have to look at each album and rate it on it's intended outcome - were RATM aiming for a varied piece of work which tells a story or whatever? no - so it'd be silly to knock points off for not crossing the boxes it never intended to.

 

[Yossarian]

Like comparing Spurs with old style Wimbledon.
Only possible result 6-3 Nirvana. \o/

 

[Mulletperm]

RAGE for me. Every single tune is brilliantly put together. Add to that the insane passion of Zack de la Rocha and the genius of Tom Morello and it's ranked as one of my favourite all time albums.

Nevermind is a very good album (just not as good as Bleach...)

 

[milo]

if there was a ballad on RATM that would definitely be points off

I wasn't suggesting that there should be a ballad on RATM, Territorial ****ings is one of the tracks that provides some contrast in tone on Nevermind for example.

It just feels to me that all of RATM was mined from the same seam. Which leaves you with three or four stand out tracks and a load of less successful attempts at the same idea making up the rest.

 

[milo]

i think you have to look at each album and rate it on it's intended outcome - were RATM aiming for a varied piece of work which tells a story or whatever? no - so it'd be silly to knock points off for not crossing the boxes it never intended to.

I don't agree. I judge each album on how it hangs together as a piece of work. RATM has some very good high points but it cannot maintain that standard for the length of an album.

 

[scaramanga]

Voted Nevermind but it should have been In Utero in this list.

 

[Jordinho]

I don't agree. I judge each album on how it hangs together as a piece of work. RATM has some very good high points but it cannot maintain that standard for the length of an album.

Whaaaaaaaat?

The ONLY problem with RATM is that it's too short. There's so much variety within each song. Not like an ACDC album where most songs are equal in length and structure.

 

[milo]

Whaaaaaaaat?

The ONLY problem with RATM is that it's too short. There's so much variety within each song. Not like an ACDC album where most songs are equal in length and structure.

It is a criticism we could equally level at Nirvana but quiet/loud is not in itself variety particularly when the same trick is pulled on every song.

 

[thfcsteff]

I saw Nirvana twice (once before, once after Nevermind) and RATM once. I thought that Nirvana were the better of the two because there was more variety and texture to their music/performance and Combain had real star quality.

I saw Nirvana a bunch of times before and after…probably comes down to taste. I loved Nirvana so am biased. Saw RATM a few times, but only once did they blow my doors off, at the infamous woodstock of 99…Nirvana for me.

 

[thfcsteff]

Interesting that none of the RATM fans quibbles with the production (by trendy duder of the time GGGarth-whoever!)…it really trips that album up for me. Take 'Bullet…' when that kicks in, I expect it to be so much thicker! Taste is many-splendored thing and this album certainly divides people and always has...

 

[billyiddo]

I disagree Steff, and have read that it's held in high regard in certain circles for it's production values


i believe the album itself is as true to the original sound as you can get - i think the in sleeve mentions all sounds made are drums/guitar/bass and mic - no elaborate computer wizardry in the production room to clean things up or fool the listener.

 

[milo]

I disagree Steff, and have read that it's held in high regard in certain circles for it's production values


i believe the album itself is as true to the original sound as you can get - i think the in sleeve mentions all sounds made are drums/guitar/bass and mic - no elaborate computer wizardry in the production room to clean things up or fool the listener.

I'm kind of with Steff on this one, i think that the production is a bit woolly.

It sounds like I'm trashing RATM here, which I do not mean to do.

 

[billyiddo]

i think we've heard enough about what makes RATM 'bad' - think we need to move on to what makes Nevermind great ....

I am a big fan of this album and luck of the draw has pitted my two favorite albums thus far together (go figure)

 

[milo]

i think we've heard enough about what makes RATM 'bad' - think we need to move on to what makes Nevermind great ....

Agreed.

I think that Nevermind is a very complete album. There is very little fat, it flows excellently and again (for those that listen on vinyl) the running order is spot on - side 1 opening and closing with Smells Like Teen Spirit and Polly, side 2 with Territorial ****ings and Something in the Way (I think that this is the way the band intended the album to be heard).

Whilst many (including the band) would probably criticise the production, it is an interesting thought about the history of music if this album hadn't broken through. The production definitely played a part here.

I've got a couple of bootleg singles of the demos from Nevermind. Obviously rougher than the finished album and a lot more similar to Bleach and In Utero in sound. I don't think that these are the same ones which were included in the 20th anniversary edition of the album but I am not certain.

 

[Superted]

Interesting that none of the RATM fans quibbles with the production (by trendy duder of the time GGGarth-whoever!)…it really trips that album up for me. Take 'Bullet…' when that kicks in, I expect it to be so much thicker! Taste is many-splendored thing and this album certainly divides people and always has...

Not sure what you mean by that first sentence. And ridiculous we're criticising RATM's production when the competition is Nevermind. Boy-band production on a rock record that Nirvana themselves tried to distance themselves from.

 

[Jordinho]

Not sure what you mean by that first sentence. And ridiculous we're criticising RATM's production when the competition is Nevermind. Boy-band production on a rock record that Nirvana themselves tried to distance themselves from.

Mmm-hmmm

Butch Vig's first high-profile production work was in 1991, when he produced The Smashing Pumpkins' Gish and Nirvana's Nevermind. Vig incorporated overdubs and vocal doubletracking, whereas Nirvana's previous album, Bleach (produced by Jack Endino) had a more "lo-fi" sound. Kurt Cobain originally refused to double-track his vocals and guitars but Vig reportedly got him to comply by saying "John Lennon double-tracked". Cobain would later criticize Vig for the album's slickness, although this might be due to Andy Wallace's mixing of the album. Cobain said that "Butch Vig...recorded the album perfectly," in a 1993 MTV interview.

On RATM:

The album is known for its high production values, which are almost to the strictest audiophile standards. Some audiophile sites and magazines even go as far as using the album—in particular the song "Take the Power Back"—to test amplifiers and speakers.

 

[stinkfoot]

On RATM:

The album is known for its high production values, which are almost to the strictest audiophile standards. Some audiophile sites and magazines even go as far as using the album—in particular the song "Take the Power Back"—to test amplifiers and speakers.

I'm going to listen to it later on my Sennheiser HD598's to check this out!

 

[thfcsteff]

I disagree Steff, and have read that it's held in high regard in certain circles for it's production values


i believe the album itself is as true to the original sound as you can get - i think the in sleeve mentions all sounds made are drums/guitar/bass and mic - no elaborate computer wizardry in the production room to clean things up or fool the listener.

Indeed, this is absolutely true (their manager at that time was a friend) but I think to my ear, I wish that the source equipment had packed more punch and that the source production had exacerbated the 'fullness' of the bass a bit more OR sharpened up the attack on the guitars so as they were more 'punk' sounding. When I hear those guitars, i always know how I want them to sound…and given the style of production (thinner and more in keeping with 'alternative' than classic rock) I'd want those things to attack me like the guitars on a classic Black Flag record.


To give you reasons why I think Nevermind is a classic…

1) It's weight and balance, from start to finish, is perfect. Starts big and then has excellent dynamics. You are engaged and allowed to breath all at once.

2) The writing. It's superb. The finest blend of Beatles/Killing Joke/Pixies, etc you could imagine.

3) The production is absolutely perfect. Loud enough to matter yet balanced enough not to have any single element obliterating another…Novoselic's bass is given room to show it's muscular underpinning, Grohl's drums are great and then there's The Magic Man…onto…I can tell you that Cobain never was comfortable with the production, but equally, I can tell you that my feeling is he was hamstrung by his own 'indie-cred' insecurities and anxieties.

4) That voice. Unique. Incredible, unforgettable, engaging…

5) It is an album that IF started from track 1 demands you play it through.

Steff