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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DeanoAustin said:
Ah come on mate, it's silly to say Redknapp had the squad playing to its level. In his three full seasons we finished 4th, 5th and 4th. That's in a time where City and Chelsea had bottomless pockets and Arsenal and United have been established in the top 4 for over 15 years. Redknapp did an excellent job even taking the two poor finishes to his last two seasons into account.

I feel for AVB. He seems like a decent man and an intelligent man. But he has to go. I lost faith after City. There was so much wrong there and the performance was such that you could see the writing on the wall. This nonsense about possession and control is fine in a world where statisticians and mathematicians could predict football matches but there are too many moving parts and variables to reduce it purely to that. I also believe AVB has no idea how to handle his squad. If he said that the summer signings left the squad unbalanced, he is right. However, that doesn't excuse his handling of the squad which has been really, really poor. There has been no consistency (particularly in the three players playing off our CF) and as a result, individuals have not performed.

He needs to be cut loose. I disagreed with Harry going but wanted AVB (especially over Moyes). However, he's failing and if we allow him to continue, he will fail some more. Southampton will beat us next week if AVB is our manager. The bounceback we had last time will not happen this time. He's like a deer in the headlights and needs to be moved on.

As great as Liverpool were yesterday, we made them look good. This is a Liverpool team, minus Sturridge and Gerrard, that hadn't won in four games on the road and had lost two weeks ago to Hull. I saw Swansea absolutely murder them for the last 30 minutes earlier in the season. They're a good side but they're nowhere near as good as we made them look.

Levy needs to act.
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I think Redknapp did have us to our level. 4th was an amazing achievement granted, but in the first year of City's oil money when they'd signed a lot of foreigners and sacked their manager half way through the year. That was the only time we had a shot of finishing above them and we did it. Fantastic stuff, but not really 'above our level' since we'd been 5th twice under Jol and Liverpool fell drastically that season.

The next year, we came 5th...pretty much our level. Then we came 4th again after Chelsea fell drastically. Unlike the first 4th which was amazing, I thought this 4th was ridiculous. We should have been higher considering our squad and how utterly awful Arsenal started that year.

I don't think we will necessarily fall with AVB, because the players seem to still back him. I'd say that's the reason he hasn't been sacked immediately rather than because of money. If they didn't want to play for him anymore he would be gone. I don't really look upon managers as good or bad in this instance...we can sack AVB and these players will settle and performances will pick up. There is bad form now and bad results and we weren't trying to get everyone working to a system which gives us long term benefits things wouldn't be this bad, but as I said, we are trying to take the final step up and it's not easy, I think we need this pain to get there.

I agree with you on Liverpool, they aren't as good as we made them look.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DHSF said:
I have slept on it and whilst im still furious and would love to knock a wall out - AVB has gotta stay actually - no viable alternatives out there. But no matter how he does, I think he should go at end of the season.

We may as well think of this season as a transitional one, im seeing as a transitional one now, its a shame as I had really high hopes this season which have all but been dashed.
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It is a shame, I had really high hopes too. I now have them for next year :D

I just don't get that sacking the guy does any good. Every single manager we could get has a question mark against them. Success is not about finding the one guy that cures every problem and performs flawlessly, making us title challengers on a zero net spend. That man doesn't exist.

We could sack AVB, and the new guy would see people saying he makes baffling substitutions and strange tactical decisions, because as long as I've been a Spurs fan I've seen these complaints. I just don't think it does any good. We've been round this block too many times. We need to suck it up and take the pain to move up IMO.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DeanoAustin said:
Couldn't disagree more. There's no point in giving him more time. He's done. If we leave him where he is, we will get beat this weekend. How far do you leave us fall?
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I know it was diff circumstances, but remember when we lost against Emirates Marketing Project when Harry was in charge? perhaps same situation this time around? Although I wont hold my breathe, I cant imagine the players and AVB are not hurting as much as us and something may well be done.

Im in two minds, heart is saying that he wont succeed and I dont think he will, but the head is saying we may have to wait till end of the season.

Although if you are to sack him then he may as well leave now
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
It is a shame, I had really high hopes too. I now have them for next year :D

I just don't get that sacking the guy does any good. Every single manager we could get has a question mark against them. Success is not about finding the one guy that cures every problem and performs flawlessly, making us title challengers on a zero net spend. That man doesn't exist.

We could sack AVB, and the new guy would see people saying he makes baffling substitutions and strange tactical decisions, because as long as I've been a Spurs fan I've seen these complaints. I just don't think it does any good. We've been round this block too many times. We need to suck it up and take the pain to move up IMO.
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There are two questions we need to ask ourselves. 1) is Levy prepared to consider this season as a transitional one? after spending 100m. 2) AVB is right, we are not far off the top, but is AVB the guy who will close that gap? Its simple to close the gap in THEORY but may well be difficult in PRACTICE... would bringing in someone instill some normality for the players and a lease of life and get us, if not top four, somewhere there or there abouts.

You say that the next guy may make baffling decisions and you are right, no manager will ever make the same tactical decision as everyone as you have a million fans all with differing views - but as long as it works, not many will complain. Lets be honest, someone like Harry may have made baffling decisions but they worked and got us success.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
I think Redknapp did have us to our level. 4th was an amazing achievement granted, but in the first year of City's oil money when they'd signed a lot of foreigners and sacked their manager half way through the year. That was the only time we had a shot of finishing above them and we did it. Fantastic stuff, but not really 'above our level' since we'd been 5th twice under Jol and Liverpool fell drastically that season.

The next year, we came 5th...pretty much our level. Then we came 4th again after Chelsea fell drastically. Unlike the first 4th which was amazing, I thought this 4th was ridiculous. We should have been higher considering our squad and how utterly awful Arsenal started that year.

I don't think we will necessarily fall with AVB, because the players seem to still back him. I'd say that's the reason he hasn't been sacked immediately rather than because of money. If they didn't want to play for him anymore he would be gone. I don't really look upon managers as good or bad in this instance...we can sack AVB and these players will settle and performances will pick up. There is bad form now and bad results and we weren't trying to get everyone working to a system which gives us long term benefits things wouldn't be this bad, but as I said, we are trying to take the final step up and it's not easy, I think we need this pain to get there.

I agree with you on Liverpool, they aren't as good as we made them look.
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I don't believe that any manager, Mourinho, Wenger or Fergie aside, that would have had us finishing any higher than Harry. 4th, 5th and 4th was getting pretty much the best out of the club over a season. People lambast him for the finish to his last season. Rightly so in many ways. Him hitching his skirt for England affected us. Anyone who says otherwise is being pretty stupid. But the fact that he had us third in the table, on an unbelievable run since the second game of the season (didn't we only lose, somehow, to Stoke between the second game and Emirates Marketing Project away) was phenomenal. His detractors don't give him due credit for that in my view. The football was out of this world too. However, I'd doubt we will ever agree on Harry.

We will fall with AVB. West Ham was the first sign, City the second and yesterday the third. We bounced back the last two times. I'll be amazed if it happens this time. You can't take these sorts of beatings with these sorts of performances. I don't accept that this is necessary to take the next step up. Did we suffer this sort of humiliation under Jol? 3-0 away to Palace was the worst result I remember under him. Did we suffer this sort of humiliation under Harry? Before you point to the 5-1 against City at home, that City team was far superior to Liverpool and there was a lot going on in the background (Modric being the biggest example). Even that result was in Harry's last season after he'd gotten us CL football.

The defeats under AVB are bad enough. The manner of them is disgraceful. Even the manner of the victories is pretty poor. The man doesn't know what he is doing and needs to go. If he doesn't, we'll be marooned in mid table and he'll still be talking about good runs in competitions that no one else cares about.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DHSF said:
I know it was diff circumstances, but remember when we lost against Emirates Marketing Project when Harry was in charge? perhaps same situation this time around? Although I wont hold my breathe, I cant imagine the players and AVB are not hurting as much as us and something may well be done.

Im in two minds, heart is saying that he wont succeed and I dont think he will, but the head is saying we may have to wait till end of the season.

Although if you are to sack him then he may as well leave now
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I wanted AVB to succeed, I really did. But he won't and I don't equate this with the 1-5 to City a couple of seasons back. City were out of this world that day and were a better side than this Liverpool side. Harry also had a lot going on in the background.

We've been humiliated three times this season. In their own way, each one has been worse than the last. The signs are there and they've been there since the start of the season even when we were fluking wins. AVB is a busted flush. The man doesn't know what he is doing. I'm not one for managerial changes on whim (I didn't want Gooner George, Jol or Harry to go for example) but when you have the wrong man in charge, there is no use in persisting. There isn't one right man for this job but there are a lot of wrong ones. This ones a wrong one.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DeanoAustin said:
I don't believe that any manager, Mourinho, Wenger or Fergie aside, that would have had us finishing any higher than Harry. 4th, 5th and 4th was getting pretty much the best out of the club over a season. People lambast him for the finish to his last season. Rightly so in many ways. Him hitching his skirt for England affected us. Anyone who says otherwise is being pretty stupid. But the fact that he had us third in the table, on an unbelievable run since the second game of the season (didn't we only lose, somehow, to Stoke between the second game and Emirates Marketing Project away) was phenomenal. His detractors don't give him due credit for that in my view. The football was out of this world too. However, I'd doubt we will ever agree on Harry.

We will fall with AVB. West Ham was the first sign, City the second and yesterday the third. We bounced back the last two times. I'll be amazed if it happens this time. You can't take these sorts of beatings with these sorts of performances. I don't accept that this is necessary to take the next step up. Did we suffer this sort of humiliation under Jol? 3-0 away to Palace was the worst result I remember under him. Did we suffer this sort of humiliation under Harry? Before you point to the 5-1 against City at home, that City team was far superior to Liverpool and there was a lot going on in the background (Modric being the biggest example). Even that result was in Harry's last season after he'd gotten us CL football.

The defeats under AVB are bad enough. The manner of them is disgraceful. Even the manner of the victories is pretty poor. The man doesn't know what he is doing and needs to go. If he doesn't, we'll be marooned in mid table and he'll still be talking about good runs in competitions that no one else cares about.
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I think AVB does know what he is doing - thats the issue. He is being too stubborn and not recognising that it just simply isnt working. If he didnt know what he was doing id actually have forgiven him and put it down to a lack of experience and naivety.

The fact he knows what he is doing is the crux of the problem. His methods and his views are just too mundane - its all about statistical analysis and complicated words with him. He reminds of the Friends episode where Joey used the thesaurus to sound smarter.

If he does get removed, I think he really does need a time out from management and actually revisit his whole philosophy on football because it wont be a success, especially in England.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Jordinho said:
But we're not going backwards, we're doing better than last season results wise. This round last season we lost 1-2 at Everton before going on a 12-game unbeaten run in the league. We're doing better in the cups. We've had three shockers in the league compared to two last season, but that's about it. Performances, style or whatever you want to call it is about the same.
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We really are not doing the same?
Last year we started very slowly, avb was new and we drew games against crap sides but as the players learnt his system we picked up and progressed.
We are doing the opposite this year, we have gone from looking a very very solid unit, that would press all over the pitch, loads od clean sheets, to what we saw yesterday and at city.
Where has the pressing gone, why are we collapsing so softly? It should have been a lot worse then 5 yesterday lets not forget. (Cross bar, suarez open goal, countless missed chances!)
Yes we had a makeshift back line but there was something else very very wrong yesterday and its impossible to deny I'm afraid.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DHSF said:
I think AVB does know what he is doing - thats the issue. He is being too stubborn and not recognising that it just simply isnt working. If he didnt know what he was doing id actually have forgiven him and put it down to a lack of experience and naivety.

The fact he knows what he is doing is the crux of the problem. His methods and his views are just too mundane - its all about statistical analysis and complicated words with him. He reminds of the Friends episode where Joey used the thesaurus to sound smarter.

If he does get removed, I think he really does need a time out from management and actually revisit his whole philosophy on football because it wont be a success, especially in England.
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He may have his system and stats and know what he wants from that but I'm more talking about his team selections.

For example, he has 7 players vying for 3 positions in his system (Lamela, Holtby, Eriksen, Lennon, Townsend, Sigurdsson and Paulinho). I have no idea who his first choices are and neither does he. He's been given too many similar type players but he has no idea how to handle them and as a result has just chopped and changed with the result that none have played well. All this while his front man is being starved of service and looking like a poor man's Rasiak instead of a £26 million player.

Shoving Vertonghen to left back has been silly. Jan's been decent at left back in some games but what you lose at centre back is too much. I'd rather someone else out there (even Naughton or Fryers).

This fella has no idea how to manage this squad.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DeanoAustin said:
I don't believe that any manager, Mourinho, Wenger or Fergie aside, that would have had us finishing any higher than Harry. 4th, 5th and 4th was getting pretty much the best out of the club over a season. People lambast him for the finish to his last season. Rightly so in many ways. Him hitching his skirt for England affected us. Anyone who says otherwise is being pretty stupid. But the fact that he had us third in the table, on an unbelievable run since the second game of the season (didn't we only lose, somehow, to Stoke between the second game and Emirates Marketing Project away) was phenomenal. His detractors don't give him due credit for that in my view. The football was out of this world too. However, I'd doubt we will ever agree on Harry.

We will fall with AVB. West Ham was the first sign, City the second and yesterday the third. We bounced back the last two times. I'll be amazed if it happens this time. You can't take these sorts of beatings with these sorts of performances. I don't accept that this is necessary to take the next step up. Did we suffer this sort of humiliation under Jol? 3-0 away to Palace was the worst result I remember under him. Did we suffer this sort of humiliation under Harry? Before you point to the 5-1 against City at home, that City team was far superior to Liverpool and there was a lot going on in the background (Modric being the biggest example). Even that result was in Harry's last season after he'd gotten us CL football.

The defeats under AVB are bad enough. The manner of them is disgraceful. Even the manner of the victories is pretty poor. The man doesn't know what he is doing and needs to go. If he doesn't, we'll be marooned in mid table and he'll still be talking about good runs in competitions that no one else cares about.
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In one season, I don't think the best manager in the world (whoever that is, if such a person exists) would have done better than Harry. But my point is, was he ever going to see us progress beyond that level? He got us to our normal level, was he ever going to get us to play above and beyond that? I don't think he was. I take nothing away from Harry though, he was great for us and exactly what we needed at the time. But he got the job in the first place precisely because of the type of manager he was - someone who would keep it simple and not try anything too fancy, if you'll forgive a simplistic turn of phrase.

We are looking bad now but there's no actual proof to say it's because AVB is making the wrong decision or whether it's because new signings are needing to settle. What we see is bad, but we don't know the reasons behind that.

BTW, it was pretty bad under Jol which is why he got sacked. I loved that guy too, but he didn't do anything to suggest he was going to be taking us up a level to compete with the bigger clubs at the time. We almost always seemed to fall short against them.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
In one season, I don't think the best manager in the world (whoever that is, if such a person exists) would have done better than Harry. But my point is, was he ever going to see us progress beyond that level? He got us to our normal level, was he ever going to get us to play above and beyond that? I don't think he was. I take nothing away from Harry though, he was great for us and exactly what we needed at the time. But he got the job in the first place precisely because of the type of manager he was - someone who would keep it simple and not try anything too fancy, if you'll forgive a simplistic turn of phrase.

We are looking bad now but there's no actual proof to say it's because AVB is making the wrong decision or whether it's because new signings are needing to settle. What we see is bad, but we don't know the reasons behind that.

BTW, it was pretty bad under Jol which is why he got sacked. I loved that guy too, but he didn't do anything to suggest he was going to be taking us up a level to compete with the bigger clubs at the time. We almost always seemed to fall short against them.
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You can talk about going up a level and needing a change to do that. Fair enough but sometimes it just won't happen. City and Chelsea, all things being equal, will always finish ahead of us. We might get ahead of one the odd season but because of their resources, we just cannot compete longer term. No amount of long term plans will change that. It's simple economics. We were also never going to finish ahead of United while Fergie was there. They had been in the CL for 13 or 14 straight seasons and Fergie had built a culture of success that will never be replicated.

That left us, Arsenal and Liverpool to fight it out with Everton on the periphery. Arsenal have history on their side albeit they were vulnerable and Liverpool, in terms of wages, had a bigger budget than us. Had Chelsea not fluked their way to the jammiest CL win of all time then Harry would have gotten us CL football twice in three seasons. That would have been above realistic expectations of what he could achieve.

I'm always wary of this next level talk. Take Charlton as an example. Curbishley apparently took them as far as he could. They parted company and a couple of years later they go from being a mid table Premiership side to League One. You can't always get to the next level unless you get investment in the same way City did. Particularly in the medium to long term.

I thought Jol deserved more time because he had a good history with us. Two fifth placed finishes deserved more time in my view (it certainly demanded a more dignified exit). In the end, we thought Ramos would get us to the next level and league cup aside, he was a disaster (I know he wasn't helped by the transfer policy but he was poor anyway).

That's why I don't buy this long term project nonsense with AVB. He doesn't have a track record of staying anywhere long term. Even allowing for that, managers don't last more than 3-4 years these days. How long do we expect AVB to be here for? 5, 6, 7 years? Really? If he's successful, he'd be long gone by then. If he underachieves, Levy will fire him. There isn't a realistic coaching option for long term plans, the game doesn't work like that. Baldini is probably the man to implement a long term plan and that's why Levy favours the DoF role in my view. Because that will give you a solid foundation in a world where coaches can't.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I think its a situation that points towards AVB being out of his depth and for all this "eye for detail" we look like a team that has no organisation.

Maybe the opinion that he has managed to sneak big jobs has some validity to it....
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

DeanoAustin said:
You can talk about going up a level and needing a change to do that. Fair enough but sometimes it just won't happen. City and Chelsea, all things being equal, will always finish ahead of us. We might get ahead of one the odd season but because of their resources, we just cannot compete longer term. No amount of long term plans will change that. It's simple economics. We were also never going to finish ahead of United while Fergie was there. They had been in the CL for 13 or 14 straight seasons and Fergie had built a culture of success that will never be replicated.

That left us, Arsenal and Liverpool to fight it out with Everton on the periphery. Arsenal have history on their side albeit they were vulnerable and Liverpool, in terms of wages, had a bigger budget than us. Had Chelsea not fluked their way to the jammiest CL win of all time then Harry would have gotten us CL football twice in three seasons. That would have been above realistic expectations of what he could achieve.

I'm always wary of this next level talk. Take Charlton as an example. Curbishley apparently took them as far as he could. They parted company and a couple of years later they go from being a mid table Premiership side to League One. You can't always get to the next level unless you get investment in the same way City did. Particularly in the medium to long term.

I thought Jol deserved more time because he had a good history with us. Two fifth placed finishes deserved more time in my view (it certainly demanded a more dignified exit). In the end, we thought Ramos would get us to the next level and league cup aside, he was a disaster (I know he wasn't helped by the transfer policy but he was poor anyway).

That's why I don't buy this long term project nonsense with AVB. He doesn't have a track record of staying anywhere long term. Even allowing for that, managers don't last more than 3-4 years these days. How long do we expect AVB to be here for? 5, 6, 7 years? Really? If he's successful, he'd be long gone by then. If he underachieves, Levy will fire him. There isn't a realistic coaching option for long term plans, the game doesn't work like that. Baldini is probably the man to implement a long term plan and that's why Levy favours the DoF role in my view. Because that will give you a solid foundation in a world where coaches can't.
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Basically what you're saying is that we can't compete at the very top, so we shouldn't bother trying to get there. In that sense, we should get Harry or similar back and pull our feet up and accept our lot in life. I just don't agree with that, I think we are very close...I think this squad we have is absolutely class and next season with everyone settled it will be fantastic.

And I do think we can compete with the bigger budgets. We have some of the pieces in place...we have the young squad that can improve and we decided to build it all in one summer. Swansea competed with bigger budgets on a smaller scale and I think we can do the same.
 
Re: Avb done (official)

was unfortunately inevitable after recent results - a shame he really promised much but just couldn't deliver it this year.

Thanks Andre for everything, good luck for wherever you end up.

now let the circus begin - who'll take over for the WestHam game? Freundie?
 
Re: Avb done (official)

Facepalm_facepalm.png
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

BrainOfLevy said:
Basically what you're saying is that we can't compete at the very top, so we shouldn't bother trying to get there. In that sense, we should get Harry or similar back and pull our feet up and accept our lot in life. I just don't agree with that, I think we are very close...I think this squad we have is absolutely class and next season with everyone settled it will be fantastic.

And I do think we can compete with the bigger budgets. We have some of the pieces in place...we have the young squad that can improve and we decided to build it all in one summer. Swansea competed with bigger budgets on a smaller scale and I think we can do the same.
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Yes that's what I'm saying. If you don't have the budget you cannot consistently compete with the Citys and Chelseas of this world. Can you show me any top league where a side with significantly smaller resources than the top sides has consistently competed with those top sides.

Aside from Lloris, we do not have one top class player in our squad. We cannot compete with the likes of City who have half a dozen. Put Jesus in the manager's chair and the result is still the same.
 
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