Gazza

[Yiddo]

Yes, because if you knew anything whatsoever about alcoholism and why people become alcoholics you'd know that 90% of the time there is an underlying mental disorder which causes them to start drinking in the first place, be that depression, post traumatic stress etc etc

Have a think before you post.

What a load of gonads.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

What a load of gonads.

Do explain........... feel free to give examples of any alcoholism sufferers or alcoholics you have known closely

 

[braineclipse]

This thread now saddens me for more than one reason.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

There are differences between mental diseases and physical ones. I think people just combine the two to get sympathy for people with mental problems. It's been a way of making mental disease more acceptable and less taboo. It seems less shameful and more normal if you class it like a physical illness. I don't think it's been a bad campaign, far from it, I'm sure it's done some great work, but there are big differences. Someone has more of a choice to get better with a mental disease, with cancer and others it's far more out of their hands. Also, if everyone surrounding an alcoholic says it is a disease, equating it with cancer or something, then it makes the alcoholic more powerless and less likely to find the strength to beat it. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves with mental disease and want to get better.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

There are differences between mental diseases and physical ones. I think people just combine the two to get sympathy for people with mental problems. It's been a way of making mental disease more acceptable and less taboo. It seems less shameful and more normal if you class it like a physical illness. I don't think it's been a bad campaign, far from it, I'm sure it's done some great work, but there are big differences. Someone has more of a choice to get better with a mental disease, with cancer and others it's far more out of their hands. Also, if everyone surrounding an alcoholic says it is a disease, equating it with cancer or something, then it makes the alcoholic more powerless and less likely to find the strength to beat it. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves with mental disease and want to get better.

It is a physical disease though. In the clinical sense, it is a progressive condition brought on by a mental obsession. It has clinical symptoms which are often very serious and/or fatal. The disease may be brought on by the person themself, but the underlying reason for this is often mental disease and it's not until you get to the bottom of the mental disorder that the person stands a chance of beating their physical addiction to alcohol. That's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Teddy508]

There are differences between mental diseases and physical ones. I think people just combine the two to get sympathy for people with mental problems. It's been a way of making mental disease more acceptable and less taboo. It seems less shameful and more normal if you class it like a physical illness. I don't think it's been a bad campaign, far from it, I'm sure it's done some great work, but there are big differences. Someone has more of a choice to get better with a mental disease, with cancer and others it's far more out of their hands. Also, if everyone surrounding an alcoholic says it is a disease, equating it with cancer or something, then it makes the alcoholic more powerless and less likely to find the strength to beat it. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves with mental disease and want to get better.

Sorry but this simply isn't true. Episodic depression - caused by some traumatic life event, yes and element of choice (or rather afirmative action) you can take to aid in the speed of recovery. Bi-polar or manic depression, schizophrenia - you're generally stuck with those ones i'm afraid. Yes, you can do things to limit the impact, much like you can with non-terminal physical disease, but you fight it for the rest of your life.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

I was meaning the classic descriptions of mental and phyiscal diseases. I'm not denying it's a real disease (I think the physical/metal disease equation is also to make it seem more real to people in layman's terms) or doesn't have real chemical properties. But a person's life and how they think affects their brain chemistry. Someone who has a really horrible childhood which is full of abuse will then have a bad chemical situation. Some of those people may be beyond help but lots can help themselves by looking after themselves, finding treatment which works for them, improving their lives through medication or therapy or action until things are better chemically.

I agree with everything you said about alcoholism. A lot of people won't face the mental disorder. I think Gazza, surrounded by celebrity yes men and publically adored, is probably one of them.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

Sorry but this simply isn't true. Episodic depression - caused by some traumatic life event, yes and element of choice (or rather afirmative action) you can take to aid in the speed of recovery. Bi-polar or manic depression, schizophrenia - you're generally stuck with those ones i'm afraid. Yes, you can do things to limit the impact, much like you can with non-terminal physical disease, but you fight it for the rest of your life.

And the people who fight it do a better job than Gazza and have a better chance of having a long, happy and productive life than someone who has just been diagnosed with brain cancer.

I don't think anyone has the bottom line on the nature v nurture debate so I won't enter that argument with you.

 

[braineclipse]

There are differences between mental diseases and physical ones. I think people just combine the two to get sympathy for people with mental problems. It's been a way of making mental disease more acceptable and less taboo. It seems less shameful and more normal if you class it like a physical illness. I don't think it's been a bad campaign, far from it, I'm sure it's done some great work, but there are big differences. Someone has more of a choice to get better with a mental disease, with cancer and others it's far more out of their hands. Also, if everyone surrounding an alcoholic says it is a disease, equating it with cancer or something, then it makes the alcoholic more powerless and less likely to find the strength to beat it. At some point people have to take responsibility for themselves with mental disease and want to get better.

There are certainly other reasons for (partially) combing the two.

Alcoholism is a very complex issue, I don't think at this point general statements like this one can be made about what is the most helpful approach to classification.

And the people who fight it do a better job than Gazza and have a better chance of having a long, happy and productive life than someone who has just been diagnosed with brain cancer.

I don't think anyone has the bottom line on the nature v nurture debate so I won't enter that argument with you.

Not sure why brain cancers is the comparison being used. Is that the prototypical physical illness? Why not the flu? Or Diabetes? Or any number of other physical illnesses...

The nature vs nurture debate isn't over, but at this point anyone claiming that it's one or the other is on the fringe at best. There's overwhelming evidence supporting that mental disorders are influenced by both environmental and genetic factors.

You're seemingly saying that Gazza isn't fighting his problems, or not fighting them well enough and that this is down to choice or personality? Am I understanding this right?

 

[Teddy508]

And the people who fight it do a better job than Gazza and have a better chance of having a long, happy and productive life than someone who has just been diagnosed with brain cancer.

I don't think anyone has the bottom line on the nature v nurture debate so I won't enter that argument with you.

No, let's not get into the nature nurture debate as, you're right, no one has the bottom line. That debate does obviously apply to physical AND mental illness though. All I'm saying is the idea there is a 'choice' is not true... I work as a clinical psychologist so hope I have some understanding

 

[scaramanga]

No, let's not get into the nature nurture debate as, you're right, no one has the bottom line. That debate does obviously apply to physical AND mental illness though. All I'm saying is the idea there is a 'choice' is not true... I work as a clinical psychologist so hope I have some understanding

In which case I'm sure you're au fait with conditions such as bipolar disorder (one that many people in the field have suggested Gazza most likely suffers from). A condition caused by a chemical imbalance that (as far as current knowledge is concerned) can't be cured, only suppressed.

Obviously it can be treated with Lithium, but if you've ever known anyone taking it, you'll know it's just as bad a situation as not taking it. Some epilepsy medications seem to work, but not always and rarely in the most extreme cases. You'll hopefully also know how the best treatment of such a condition is through therapy (cognitive behaviour, usually), but that its efficacy is almost entirely down to the intelligence (emotional and traditional) of the patient and that of their close friends/family.

As much as I love Gazza, he's not the brightest type - neither are his friends and family from what little I've seen of them. In your professional opinion, what hope do you think he has of pre-emptively recognising and avoiding high or low episodes? I've seen a lot of this myself and I don't fancy his chances one bit.

 

[Yiddo]

Do explain........... feel free to give examples of any alcoholism sufferers or alcoholics you have known closely

My Auntie died a few years back due to being a tinkle head. Nothing wrong with her before the booze apart from being lazy and drinking all day.

I have no sympathy for tinkle heads or drug addicts as there are plenty of people in this world who are depressed etc that do not turn to drink / drugs.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

My Auntie died a few years back due to being a tinkle head. Nothing wrong with her before the booze apart from being lazy and drinking all day.

I have no sympathy for tinkle heads or drug addicts as there are plenty of people in this world who are depressed etc that do not turn to drink / drugs.

Life's not as black and white as that though. Can't deny you the point that there are many people in the world who are depressed but don't turn to drink/drugs, but that doesn't mean those who do should be treated as 'scum' or given no support.

My Dad was an alcoholic, he died an alcohol related death in 2011. He qualified for Mensa, had a degree, was a respected professional and could have told you anything about either the history of Spurs (he posted on this board for a short time I think as well) and Great Britain in general. We lived in a small town and I'm yet to see a bigger turn out at a funeral. Multiple times he went long periods without drinking only to fall back off the wagon. He coached kids football teams and was generally a well respected member of society, yet he eventually threw all that away through alcohol. There were things in his life that looking back fairly obviously started the ball rolling that I won't go into.

You obviously know your auntie better than I do, and granted there are people who are just lazy and can't be arsed to do anything other than drink. But don't tar everyone with the same brush, there are alcoholics who don't want to be the way that they are and again I make my point, until you get to the underlying issue (be that mental health or whatever) they won't successfully fight their addiction.

 

[Teddy508]

In which case I'm sure you're au fait with conditions such as bipolar disorder (one that many people in the field have suggested Gazza most likely suffers from). A condition caused by a chemical imbalance that (as far as current knowledge is concerned) can't be cured, only suppressed.

Obviously it can be treated with Lithium, but if you've ever known anyone taking it, you'll know it's just as bad a situation as not taking it. Some epilepsy medications seem to work, but not always and rarely in the most extreme cases. You'll hopefully also know how the best treatment of such a condition is through therapy (cognitive behaviour, usually), but that its efficacy is almost entirely down to the intelligence (emotional and traditional) of the patient and that of their close friends/family.

As much as I love Gazza, he's not the brightest type - neither are his friends and family from what little I've seen of them. In your professional opinion, what hope do you think he has of pre-emptively recognising and avoiding high or low episodes? I've seen a lot of this myself and I don't fancy his chances one bit.

I wouldn’t say success is entirely due intelligence. IQ/education in itself would, in my opinion, have minimal impact on success of CBT, however, a lot of research focusing on success of CBT for people with mental disabilities exists and although this is somewhat conflicting, obviously plays a role.

Emotional intelligence is a difficult one since motivation to change, a clear idea on what you want to work on (understanding yourself better) come into play and these do augur well in terms of treatment success.

Thing with Gazza is that he has so many other coexisting conditions besides depression - alcoholism, OCD, bulimia and I'm sure more, that I’d imagine something like CBT would only really be an option further down the line with the use of medication with a view to moving to CBT being the aim of this treatment. Obviously things like alcohol limit the effectiveness of any medication so it can easily become somewhat of a vicious cycle (those active in substance miss-use, not surprisingly, don't respond well to CBT either).

It's difficult to say, but on the face of it, and with his track record I would not be hugely optimistic for him. Very sad to see - growing up in a family of Arsenal supporters, I probably wouldn't support spurs if it wasn't for Gazza.

 

[scaramanga]

I wouldn’t say success is entirely due intelligence. IQ/education in itself would, in my opinion, have minimal impact on success of CBT, however, a lot of research focusing on success of CBT for people with mental disabilities exists and although this is somewhat conflicting, obviously plays a role.

As I understand it, its mostly because CBT works best when the sufferer understands how CBT works. It's not like medication where one can just blindly follow instructions. When you're talking Gazza levels of brain power, it's a tough sell.

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[Danishfurniturelover]

As I understand it, its mostly because CBT works best when the sufferer understands how CBT works. It's not like medication where one can just blindly follow instructions. When you're talking Gazza levels of brain power, it's a tough sell.

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My wife does CBT to inmates in Lewes prison and my understanding of it is the same as your scara becuase she has to actually talk them through the treatment and explain how CBT works and how it will help them if they follow the programme. I write this in a room with 3 CBT book on the shelf just behind me funny enough.

 

[thfcsteff]

I was meaning the classic descriptions of mental and phyiscal diseases. I'm not denying it's a real disease (I think the physical/metal disease equation is also to make it seem more real to people in layman's terms) or doesn't have real chemical properties. But a person's life and how they think affects their brain chemistry. Someone who has a really horrible childhood which is full of abuse will then have a bad chemical situation. Some of those people may be beyond help but lots can help themselves by looking after themselves, finding treatment which works for them, improving their lives through medication or therapy or action until things are better chemically.

I agree with everything you said about alcoholism. A lot of people won't face the mental disorder. I think Gazza, surrounded by celebrity yes men and publically adored, is probably one of them.

It's a loop. In order to get to a place where you know you need help, you have to be mentally healthy enough to acknowledge it. Some people self-medicate, and for many it's enough for them to not be seen by their mates as ill and thus they feel they are 'coping'. With regards to Gazza, I think the saddest thing is that money and celebrity is only a small part of it. The man was always clearly manic. We, as Spurs supporters, saw that clearly several times. Frankly, as a kid he probably got belted around the head and told to 'behave' for things which clearly required further help. The stigma. The denial. It's all part of it...I agree, the 'yes' men certainly did not help...

EDIT. Just followed the thread, and Teddy/Scara/Chich's discussion. Very interesting and I absolutely believed him to be bi-polar at Spurs. I thought it was pretty clear he was either that or manic-depressive...I think now, people around him need to work on finding him a stable, consistent, calm environment where he can at least benefit from the treatments offered, but I have to agree, his surrounding support group do not seem especially blessed with emotional intelligence (Id say they have plenty of heart and goodwill but that's not enough here) and my sad feeling is that there is a crushing sense of inevitability to his story.

 

[Whitehart]

thing is, he chose alcohol, people cant chose heart disease, cancer etc etc. you can have a mental disorder and not drink

 

[braineclipse]

thing is, he chose alcohol, people cant chose heart disease, cancer etc etc. you can have a mental disorder and not drink

You make it sound like he chose alcohol like others chose to go to the movies or get married to someone.

You can obviously have a mental disorder and not drink, but almost by definition those with mental disorders will have maladaptive behavioral traits. All of which you could say "they chose" using the same definition of choosing as you did about Gazza and his alcohol problems.

Those choices (accepting your terminology) are different from what most people think of as choices in their life, both mundane everyday choices like going to the movies and life changing choices like getting married to someone.

 

[Teddy508]

As I understand it, its mostly because CBT works best when the sufferer understands how CBT works. It's not like medication where one can just blindly follow instructions. When you're talking Gazza levels of brain power, it's a tough sell.

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For me, unlike some other therapies, it deals with very concrete and structured concepts and doesn't require abstract thought (the homework people generally do is pretty straight forward ) but as you say you do need a comprehension of the issues at hand and I agree that it would be a tough one with Gazza because his issues are so complex. Anyway, has Benteke signed yet? I'm starting to feel I joined the wrong forum