The Society of Black Lawyers...

[Superhudd]

It's gross stupidity on the part of SBL to get involved in this. And ignorance as to the reasons why Spurs fans refer to themselves as "yids". No point going over those reasons again as pretty much everyone knows (or should know) them by now.

SBL are also demonstrating ignorance as to the ever evolving nature of the English language. What a word means in one century can be completely different to what it means in another century.
Take the word "gay", for example. How many people use it as a synonym for "happy" these days?

Likewise "yid". In the vernacular context of Spurs, it means only "Spurs fan" or "Spurs player" or even, as a collective, the club as a whole. Its roots might lie in Spurs fans' appropriation of the word to draw the sting of anti semites, back in the 70's and 80's. But, over the passage of time, the meaning has mutated. Even when fans of other clubs use the word "yids" in the context of football, the vast majority of them are only making reference to the club and its fans.

SBL can moan all they want but they are merely making a mockery of themselves and, more importantly, making a mockery of the real fight against racism. They are doing their cause a huge disservice - cheapening it by finding racism where it doesn't exist. Crying wolf. Standing Canute-like against the unstoppable tide of a language's evolution.

SBL will not stop Spurs fans from referring to themselves and their club as "yids". In fact, their risible interference is likely to have precisely the opposite effect. I predict that, in an act of understandable defiance, chanting of the word will become far more frequent.

"Context".............SBL should concentrate on that word instead; digest its meaning; and then slap themselves in the face for being so utterly silly and wasting everyone's time.

Spot on. I see the word Yid today as others call themselves Ultras

 

[DHSF]

How on earth does that work?

I'm not defending this particular group but you think if we no longer have groups defending the rights of minorities, everything will be nice and dandy and there will be equal opportunity for all?

I have tried to make this point but for some reason it just isnt coming across at all well. What im trying to say is if by constantly labelling yourselves as a minority how the hell will you ever not be considered a minority? We are all the same no? You may get someone who opposes to blacks but thats not a case of racism thats just a case of ignorance and not educated enough. So if we abolish all these minority organisations and just start living without having to have labels on people, race or colour we move forward and not consider minorities but live as one big majority so to speak.

You call it defending minority rights but thats the problem - is it an issue about the person being of an ethnic minority? for example black managers in the game - seriously do people seriously think that a manager is chosen because of their skin colour? the reason there are few black managers is the same as there are few egyptian managers around because its nothing to do with race or colour but because the specific person wasnt competent enough. For the same reason a white person will get rejected for a job the same will apply for a black person but because the black person is an ethnic minority there would be more uproar so to speak. Yet we are all equal etc.

Not putting my point forward properly at all.

 

[COYS]

Why don't they go and make a statement about Chelsea fans using the word 'Yids' and then maybe we'll consider stopping?

 

[Steed Train]

I have tried to make this point but for some reason it just isnt coming across at all well. What im trying to say is if by constantly labelling yourselves as a minority how the hell will you ever not be considered a minority? We are all the same no? You may get someone who opposes to blacks but thats not a case of racism thats just a case of ignorance and not educated enough. So if we abolish all these minority organisations and just start living without having to have labels on people, race or colour we move forward and not consider minorities but live as one big majority so to speak.

You call it defending minority rights but thats the problem - is it an issue about the person being of an ethnic minority? for example black managers in the game - seriously do people seriously think that a manager is chosen because of their skin colour? the reason there are few black managers is the same as there are few egyptian managers around because its nothing to do with race or colour but because the specific person wasnt competent enough. For the same reason a white person will get rejected for a job the same will apply for a black person but because the black person is an ethnic minority there would be more uproar so to speak. Yet we are all equal etc.

Not putting my point forward properly at all.

Great points. My sentiments exactly. Positive discrimination is still discrimination. You need to look at the root of an issue to solve it, not just treat the symptoms

 

[Baleforce]

Great points. My sentiments exactly. Positive discrimination is still discrimination. You need to look at the root of an issue to solve it, not just treat the symptoms

agreed

 

[Hootnow]

You might be right, but i would assume the solution would be to solve that they are under-represented rather then to go and create your own society.


I'm wondering if they would let someone white join or if this is some sort of cultural segregation.

How would you suggest that they solve this problem?

I have encountered groups like this before, albeit for slightly younger age groups, and they do a great job allowing people from minorities who usually wouldn't have the guidance or knowledge to apply to things like this do exactly that. And they do it for the high end jobs where these groups are under-represented, like banking, law, medicine etc.

I suspect a group like the BSL don't sit around chatting about the latest lethal bizzle song and eating fried chicken but instead make sure that there are no instances of discrimination based on colour or race for their members. And if there is such a case, to stand fully behind that member. The mere existence of such a group may help pre-empt such discrimination. The mere existence of such a group may help pre-empt such discrimination.

They may also do the above, helping young black kids with intelligence and potential but who live in areas where they will receive no guidance on how to apply/get into law school/ write a cv etc get as far as someone who was born into privilege can get in law.

Again, I suspect that if a White or Asian man applied to join, they would probably be allowed in. I doubt there is anything in their constitution/pledge that prohibits such people from joining. But their joining would be kind of pointless because that group doesn't do anything to serve their own interests.

 

[Spursalot]

How would you suggest that they solve this problem?

I have encountered groups like this before, albeit for slightly younger age groups, and they do a great job allowing people from minorities who usually wouldn't have the guidance or knowledge to apply to things like this do exactly that. And they do it for the high end jobs where these groups are under-represented, like banking, law, medicine etc.

I suspect a group like the BSL don't sit around chatting about the latest lethal bizzle song and eating fried chicken but instead make sure that there are no instances of discrimination based on colour or race for their members. And if there is such a case, to stand fully behind that member. The mere existence of such a group may help pre-empt such discrimination. The mere existence of such a group may help pre-empt such discrimination.

They may also do the above, helping young black kids with intelligence and potential but who live in areas where they will receive no guidance on how to apply/get into law school/ write a cv etc get as far as someone who was born into privilege can get in law.

Again, I suspect that if a White or Asian man applied to join, they would probably be allowed in. I doubt there is anything in their constitution/pledge that prohibits such people from joining. But their joining would be kind of pointless because that group doesn't do anything to serve their own interests.

I do not know how to solve it, but to go and create your own society seems counter-productive. Especially to call it 'the society of black lawyers', 'The society of lawyers against racism' or something similar would be far more apt.


I get what they do, but i do not see why it should only be applied to racism directed at them, or the help of black kids as you say. If they truly wanted to prevent discrimination then they would be for helping everyone and preventing all forms of discrimination (which they could be after this 'yid' incident).

In my view it just sounds like discrimination in a different way.


(Of course this is only based upon your ideas of what they might do, and i guess they could do different things)

 

[Hootnow]

I have tried to make this point but for some reason it just isnt coming across at all well. What im trying to say is if by constantly labelling yourselves as a minority how the hell will you ever not be considered a minority? We are all the same no? You may get someone who opposes to blacks but thats not a case of racism thats just a case of ignorance and not educated enough. So if we abolish all these minority organisations and just start living without having to have labels on people, race or colour we move forward and not consider minorities but live as one big majority so to speak.

You call it defending minority rights but thats the problem - is it an issue about the person being of an ethnic minority? for example black managers in the game - seriously do people seriously think that a manager is chosen because of their skin colour? the reason there are few black managers is the same as there are few egyptian managers around because its nothing to do with race or colour but because the specific person wasnt competent enough. For the same reason a white person will get rejected for a job the same will apply for a black person but because the black person is an ethnic minority there would be more uproar so to speak. Yet we are all equal etc.

Not putting my point forward properly at all.

I know what you're trying to say but I don't agree in the slightest.

I don't agree that these kinds of groups perpetuate racism or discrimination. I also don't think there is anything wrong in being labelled a minority. That is exactly what Blacks are in this country, a minority. But minorities should still be treated the same and have the same opportunities as the majority or other minorities.

I also don't think football is a suitable analogy at all because football is, imo, the ultimate meritocracy. I believe there is almost no racism now in football when recruiting because there is so much money involved, you will hire/buy the best manager/footballers you possibly can. Regardless of race.

And they have done studies on this before. White man/woman, male and female with clearly ethnic names send in the same cv to the same jobs. Take a wild swing at who gets the most call-backs.

We're also not all equal. Youth unemployment is high amongst London's youth but significantly higher as a % amongst black and Asian youth. I see neither steps to help address this socio-economic gap in terms of education and opportunities by any government and no positive discrimination for them in terms of jobs. And you want to take away a group that is perhaps one of their only ways into a job?

And positive discrimination can and does work. Look at the black football coaches in the NFL.

And Egyptian managers (including Shehata) are absolute brick

And sorry, just as an example. KCL run a scheme that allows students from some of the most deprived areas of London to get into medicine there with lower grades than normal. Black students are hugely over-represented in this group. They of course have to do an extra year to get them up to scratch with normal required levels. But KCL has a higher % of blacks than most medical schools in this country do and this case of 'positive discrimination' has allowed some people that usually wouldn't be anywhere near a course like medicine a great chance.

I don't see much societal movement to improve the circumstances and schools for these kids, just judgement and punishment when some of them inevitably end up causing trouble.

 

[braineclipse]

I have tried to make this point but for some reason it just isnt coming across at all well. What im trying to say is if by constantly labelling yourselves as a minority how the hell will you ever not be considered a minority? We are all the same no? You may get someone who opposes to blacks but thats not a case of racism thats just a case of ignorance and not educated enough. So if we abolish all these minority organisations and just start living without having to have labels on people, race or colour we move forward and not consider minorities but live as one big majority so to speak.

You call it defending minority rights but thats the problem - is it an issue about the person being of an ethnic minority? for example black managers in the game - seriously do people seriously think that a manager is chosen because of their skin colour? the reason there are few black managers is the same as there are few egyptian managers around because its nothing to do with race or colour but because the specific person wasnt competent enough. For the same reason a white person will get rejected for a job the same will apply for a black person but because the black person is an ethnic minority there would be more uproar so to speak. Yet we are all equal etc.

Not putting my point forward properly at all.

That does sound a bit naive to me.

I agree that some of the issues being brought up are strange or even counter productive, but I don't see why groups like these would be a problem in general.

I also don't quite see how opposing blacks because of ignorance and a lack of education isn't racism.

The manager example is a good one actually, I don't think managers are chosen because of their skin colour, however one of the reasons there are so few black managers is because there were very few black footballers in England not that many decades back and the very real racism that they faced. What we see today is partly a result of racism not that long ago, if a group wants to counter act that either by encouraging, offering tutoring or other support then I don't see how that is a problem.

 

[Spursalot]

That does sound a bit naive to me.

I agree that some of the issues being brought up are strange or even counter productive, but I don't see why groups like these would be a problem in general.

I also don't quite see how opposing blacks because of ignorance and a lack of education isn't racism.

The manager example is a good one actually, I don't think managers are chosen because of their skin colour, however one of the reasons there are so few black managers is because there were very few black footballers in England not that many decades back and the very real racism that they faced. What we see today is partly a result of racism not that long ago, if a group wants to counter act that either by encouraging, offering tutoring or other support then I don't see how that is a problem.

The man makes a very good point.

 

[GGyid]

apparently, Jamaine Defoe, he's a yiddo....
so this society of black lawyers will advocate he to sue the fans for being called a.....yid?

 

[Hootnow]

I do not know how to solve it, but to go and create your own society seems counter-productive. Especially to call it 'the society of black lawyers', 'The society of lawyers against racism' or something similar would be far more apt.


I get what they do, but i do not see why it should only be applied to racism directed at them, or the help of black kids as you say. If they truly wanted to prevent discrimination then they would be for helping everyone and preventing all forms of discrimination (which they could be after this 'yid' incident).

In my view it just sounds like discrimination in a different way.


(Of course this is only based upon your ideas of what they might do, and i guess they could do different things)

I agree that there should be an umbrella organisation against racism but who is it discriminating against?

 

[Hootnow]

The manager example is a good one actually, I don't think managers are chosen because of their skin colour, however one of the reasons there are so few black managers is because there were very few black footballers in England not that many decades back and the very real racism that they faced. What we see today is partly a result of racism not that long ago, if a group wants to counter act that either by encouraging, offering tutoring or other support then I don't see how that is a problem.

Indeed, there is a significant time lag. And then you get idiots like Cole saying he won't do his badges because he won't get a job. If you're good, you'll get a job.

 

[Superhudd]

The man makes a very good point.

In Africa, how many white players played 20-30 years ago... obviously not including South Africa.

So.. in turn how many white coaches have come through playing in African football.

 

[Spursalot]

I agree that there should be an umbrella organisation against racism but who is it discriminating against?

If it is focused upon the rights of black people then it is discriminating against everyone else.


It is stating that the discrimination of black people is more important than any discrimination against anyone else.



(but without full knowledge of what they do this is only based upon your assumptions, so could be completely wrong)

 

[Spursalot]

In Africa, how many white players played 20-30 years ago... obviously not including South Africa.

So.. in turn how many white coaches have come through playing in African football.

I would assume not many on either front.


But in all honesty i do not follow african football that much.

 

[mouville]

Like I say, if people feel disenfranchised , why not e-mail The Law Society? Anyone? I've read the above comments and all are valid but what about doing something concrete? makea stand.....make a point? GGYid...Jermaine Defoe is .....a jolly good chap? E-mail the Law society and make your point.

 

[Hootnow]

If it is focused upon the rights of black people then it is discriminating against everyone else.


It is stating that the discrimination of black people is more important than any discrimination against anyone else.



(but without full knowledge of what they do this is only based upon your assumptions, so could be completely wrong)

Really? But by doing that, they're not saying that other forms of discrimination aren't as important but that this is what they focus on.

When you give to a charity, are you in your mind telling yourself that all other charities in the world do a less important job?

And I agree with your in parenthesis.

 

[DHSF]

I know what you're trying to say but I don't agree in the slightest.

I don't agree that these kinds of groups perpetuate racism or discrimination. I also don't think there is anything wrong in being labelled a minority. That is exactly what Blacks are in this country, a minority. But minorities should still be treated the same and have the same opportunities as the majority or other minorities.

I also don't think football is a suitable analogy at all because football is, imo, the ultimate meritocracy. I believe there is almost no racism now in football when recruiting because there is so much money involved, you will hire/buy the best manager/footballers you possibly can. Regardless of race.

And they have done studies on this before. White man/woman, male and female with clearly ethnic names send in the same cv to the same jobs. Take a wild swing at who gets the most call-backs.

We're also not all equal. Youth unemployment is high amongst London's youth but significantly higher as a % amongst black and Asian youth. I see neither steps to help address this socio-economic gap in terms of education and opportunities by any government and no positive discrimination for them in terms of jobs. And you want to take away a group that is perhaps one of their only ways into a job?

And positive discrimination can and does work. Look at the black football coaches in the NFL.

And Egyptian managers (including Shehata) are absolute brick

We have two black people in our team of 20 at work... It just so happens that we have two but we didnt hire them because of skin colour we hired them based on qualifications and competencies as well as experience. We rejected blacks, whites, asians hell im sure we rejected muslims too. No doubt that comes across in those statistics so those statistics in my view can easily be misconstrued and show something that actually isnt. Of the 20 about 14 of them are girls - did we hire them just because theyre girls? why didnt we hire more men? actually we are going against the grain where most guys get the good jobs isnt that how the media portrays things?

Its like anything - look at rap music - the majority are black artists yet you dont have a white rappers society (i hope im not proved wrong here haha) yet we dont really take notice of it because racism in that industry doesnt exist it just so happens that black artists are better at rapping. Its all strengths and weaknesses.

Im not in any way shape or form debating that racism doesnt exist but like someone mentioned in another post thats not the root cause thats the end result. The root cause is ignorance and naivety resulting from a lack of education. The root cause can be eradicated at school if you want to go down that path. That ignorance and naivety is what caused the fracas in Serbia - they dont know any better.

As Eclipse says - like football we are feeling the repercussions of the root cause problem which was experienced in the 60's, 70's, 80's and that was that the blacks etc were poorly educated leading to their kids nowadays not being educated enough (as their parents werent able to either afford education or as like any other race their kids ended up as truants) this is why they dont get the jobs etc.


In 20 years time you will see those stats you mentioned improve but it wont be because of the likes of the SBA it will be because kids are getting education and becoming well learned and getting the qualifications to become employed etc.

 

[Mike_T]

Herbert by name, Herbert by nature.
fudging Herbert.