Vinai Venkatesham - CEO

[Raziel]

Literally no one has said that....

The chat has been about whoever the manager is needed better back in better squad management. Ange needed it, Frank needed it and RDZ will need it.

If you think stand alone that this squad as is will shoot up the league and be consistently sexy and picking up results to make us compete at a high level just because of the manager then I think you are deluded.

No one is digging out RDZ before anyone kicks off either, the point is, he will need to be backed to be anywhere near as successful as his own talents can provide, thay talent cant and won't just do it on its own.

It will be better, 100% better, it already is, his points per game would have had us in 6th extrapolated to full season.

This is the crux of the argument though
- Some people give Frank a pass because the squad was "brick" what else could you expect.
- And then they try to justify it by comparing our squad to City/Liverpool/Arsenal/etc.

That is disingenuous at best.
- Go compare our squad to Leeds, go ask why their home record is vastly better than ours with fudging Joe Rodon in CB
- Go ask how Sunderland got a European spot?
- Go ask any manager at 12+ of the PL teams if they wouldn't swap our squad for theirs, blind, no caveats and tell e how many would have said no? ask how many of those 14 squads you would swap blind to start next season (the answer is none).

All of that is a very different question/conversation vs.
- Is this squad good enough to compete for trophies and CL spots consistently (we won a trophy two seasons ago, we were 5th 3 seasons ago)

I don't think so, I think RDZ could get is 6th-8th with this squad fit, but why would we do that. It absolutely makes sense to make improvements (our front line isn't good enough). Hence my other ongoing argument that this ownership needs to spend (Frank and Ange were given money btw, I don't understand how some posters think we should give RDZ less).

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

This is the crux of the argument though
- Some people give Frank a pass because the squad was "brick" what else could you expect.
- And then they try to justify it by comparing our squad to City/Liverpool/Arsenal/etc.

No its not and no they haven't

The only one being disingenuous TBF is you, making every post out to be something it isn't and linking it back so you can hammer the drum about Frank and how he got a pass and how people are not hammering him enough still, despite everyone and their dog on here saying he deserved to be sacked

If we carry on as we have in the past and put together summers and squads as we have, it will undermine RDZ and his potential here, thats whats being said..........feel free to manipulate that point into something its not about Thomas fudging Frank

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

No its not and no they haven't

The only one being disingenuous TBF is you, making every post out to be something it isn't and linking it back so you can hammer the drum about Frank and how he got a pass and how people are not hammering him enough still, despite everyone and their dog on here saying he deserved to be sacked

If we carry on as we have in the past and put together summers and squads as we have, it will undermine RDZ and his potential here, thats whats being said..........feel free to manipulate that point into something its not about Thomas fudging Frank

I don’t think that’s true at all. Frank absolutely is getting a free pass by many because “the squad is brick” clearly RDZ proved you can get a tune (results and performance) out of FAR less available than Frank had.

The next argument is always how many of our players would get into City, goons, pool etc squads…

raziel is spot on, maybe it’s because you are coming from the other side of the fence that you don’t see it?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I don’t think that’s true at all. Frank absolutely is getting a free pass by many because “the squad is brick” clearly RDZ proved you can get a tune (results and performance) out of FAR less available than Frank had.

The next argument is always how many of our players would get into City, goons, pool etc squads…

raziel is spot on, maybe it’s because you are coming from the other side of the fence that you don’t see it?

No, people are linking people like me saying this squad isnt good enough moving forward. To act like I am saying its a pass for Frank.....its not.

This isnt a top 6 squad, you cant just take the first 6/7 games of RDZ time and say "well thats probably pro rata 6th in a normal year" and pretend everything is fine.

A front three that if all fit has to include 2 of either Tel, Solanke and or Richy isnt good enough......

The squad is massively unbalanced and full of players that need moving on, also assessments made over players who have spent too long on treatment tables.

Frank was brick and deserved to be sacked, for clarity......again

Raziel and Bol have both admitted in the last couple of days that their frustration is that saying Frank deserved to be sacked isn't enough, you have to really really really mean it.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

No, people are linking people like me saying this squad isnt good enough moving forward to act like I am saying its a pass from Frank. Its not.

This isnt a top 6 squad, you cant just take the first 6/7 games of RDZ time and say "well thats probably rate 6th in a normal year" and pretend everything is fine.

A front three that if all fit has to include 2 of either Tel, Solanke and or Richy osnt good enough......

The squad is massively unbalanced and full of players that need moving on, also assessments made over players who have spent too long on treatment tables.

Frank was brick and deserved to be sacked, for clarity......again

Literally NOONE is saying the squad doesn’t need improving, I don’t think anyone’s said this squad should be 6th, just that RDZ’s results extrapolated with a decimated attack would have us there, very different things.

There’s been countless posts saying 17th and a relegation battle is expected with this squad, countless! Mate it’s not even a debate that’s been the case since Christmas. Franks Spurs team lowered expectations that low.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Literally NOONE is saying the squad doesn’t need improving, I don’t think anyone’s said this squad should be 6th, just that RDZ’s results extrapolated with a decimated attack would have us there, very different things.

There’s been countless posts saying 17th and a relegation battle is expected with this squad, countless! Mate it’s not even a debate that’s been the case since Christmas. Franks Spurs team lowered expectations that low.

Then why the argument because I have literally just kept repeating that RDZ needs backing and the squad improving to reach his potential with us

Then comes this absolutely relentless onslaught of posts that people are defending Frank....when they clearly are not.

Its like the fcukign twilight zone

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Then why the fcuk the argument because I have literally just kept repeating that RDZ needs backing and the squad improving to reach his potential with us

Then comes this absolutely relentless onslaught of posts that people are defending Frank....when they clearly are not.

Its like the fcukign twilight zone

My second sentance explains that. Frank got a pass from those saying what else can we expect from this squad, it’s a relegation squad.

That’s giving him a pass, he hugely underperformed with what he had. With the exact same injuries and a proper manager (RDZ) we are safely mid table last season.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

My second sentance explains that. Frank got a pass from those saying what else can we expect from this squad, it’s a relegation squad.

That’s giving him a pass, he hugely underperformed with what he had. With the exact same injuries and a proper manager (RDZ) we are safely mid table last season.

Fine but that's not been the case in my example, I literally said RDZ needs better and the squad needs balance, then we end up back down the yellow brick road of Frank not being criticised enough.

Its like nightmare on sesame Street

Simply put:

- Frank was brick
- RDZ is better
- We have overspent on players who have subsequently not shown up
- Spending big does not mean spending well as last years window proved
- We have not got to grips with injuries (we need to badly)
- We have a MASSIVELY unbalanced squad
- We have had to rely in 3 season on really really crap loans (Werner, Tel, Muani)
- In order to hit any heights consistently and to give RDZ any real chance of not just relying on magic from the dugout, we need to improve on many areas and address the balance

* this is not a defence of Thomas Frank

 

[Robspur12]

But then RDZ showed much more intent and initiative with the team in 2 games, than Frank did his entire time, with a worse squad of players? And with a central midfield pairing that people said was the reason the football was bad.

It was Frank’s fear and incapacity to adapt to the demands of Spurs for the reason we saw the style we did. Not the players.

*Sigh* we know RDZ is a better coach. But I'm absolutely sure, even under him, results would have reverted to the mean eventually. And we will be in a similar position next season if we do not strengthen and get to grips with our injuries.

What ever the metrics say, the eye test said to me that the Leeds performance was very similar to the Sunderland one earlier in the season. I think the most decisive changes from RDZ was to bring in Kinsky in goal and super Kev as well as turning the negativity on its head. Kinsky saved a point Vs Leeds and 2 Vs Everton. Had he not done so, we would have been relegated. And yes Frank could have favoured those 2 as well but Ange hadn't before. And although Frank fell into cycle of negativity that eventually consumed him, there were mitigations too, I mean the loss to injuries of forward players such as Odobert ( just when he was starting to come good), Kudus, (who had been playing well), added to Maddison not playing, Kulu not playing and Solanke barely playing.

We were still not great up front in those final games even though we played on the front foot. I mean Palhinha scored to give us 2 wins from Set pieces, similar to what he did under Frank. And this is written by someone who has been and is a big of De Zerbi.

 

[Raziel]

*Sigh* we know RDZ is a better coach. But I'm absolutely sure, even under him, results would have reverted to the mean eventually. And we will be in a similar position next season if we do not strengthen and get to grips with our injuries.

What ever the metrics say, the eye test said to me that the Leeds performance was very similar to the Sunderland one earlier in the season. I think the most decisive changes from RDZ was to bring in Kinsky in goal and super Kev as well as turning the negativity on its head. Kinsky saved a point Vs Leeds and 2 Vs Everton. Had he not done so, we would have been relegated. And yes Frank could have favoured those 2 as well but Ange hadn't before. And although Frank fell into cycle of negativity that eventually consumed him, there were mitigations too, I mean the loss to injuries of forward players such as Odobert ( just when he was starting to come good), Kudus, (who had been playing well), added to Maddison not playing, Kulu not playing and Solanke barely playing.

We were still not great up front in those final games even though we played on the front foot. I mean Palhinha scored to give us 2 wins from Set pieces, similar to what he did under Frank. And this is written by someone who has been and is a big of De Zerbi.

Our front line is brick mate .. what is mean is hard to tell, likely worse than the extrapolated PPG to full season but better than what we saw for first 31 games.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

*Sigh* we know RDZ is a better coach. But I'm absolutely sure, even under him, results would have reverted to the mean eventually. And we will be in a similar position next season if we do not strengthen and get to grips with our injuries.

What ever the metrics say, the eye test said to me that the Leeds performance was very similar to the Sunderland one earlier in the season. I think the most decisive changes from RDZ was to bring in Kinsky in goal and super Kev as well as turning the negativity on its head. Kinsky saved a point Vs Leeds and 2 Vs Everton. Had he not done that we would have been relegated. And yes Frank could have favoured those 2 as well but Ange hadn't before.

We were still not great up front in those final games even though we played on the front foot. I mean Palhinha scored to give us 2 wins from Set pieces, similar to what he did under Frank.

I don’t disagree you can find the odd section of games where we looked ok under Frank, Liverpool for periods at home, City second half at home, Wolves first half at home, Brentford etc.

The issue is that Frank, because of his decisions, actually ruined the confidence of the squad. They had fear like I had never seen. The crowd then had fear like I’d never seen or heard. Being unable to progress the ball up the pitch, to have any capacity to pass through the middle, to be so predictable that teams would figure us out, and to allow ‘low percentage’ chances from outside the box because the data says they are low percentage, rather than understanding that elite players will take that space and score more often than not.

These are all Frank decisions. It’s not just that the football was on the whole dreadful, it’s that he destroyed the confidence of the squad, and very nearly got us relegated. I remember the 90s and early 00s being talked about as the absolute doldrums, because we’d finish mid table. The Pleat season where we finished 14th after Hoddle was sacked. And yet…that was NO WHERE NEAR as bad as what we saw this season.

It wasn’t just that he deserved to be sacked, as if we slipped to 12th or something. It’s that he very nearly relegated us. And people will still talk like the squad wasn’t good enough and what else can we expect…

RDZ proved that a competent coach with a style of football that scales to Spurs can get results, performances, and inspire the loyalty and confidence of the players. He will absolutely do better too with better players. I just still find it surprising that ‘we move on’ because the guy was sacked, when we very nearly got relegated. I personally still want to know what went wrong in that appointment, because at least two of the main decision makers are still here. How could they not see it? That is what concerns me. It was SO bad, such a disastrous decision and bad fit, and I just don’t understand how people in power at our club could have let it happen.

 

[Robspur12]

Our front line is brick mate .. what is mean is hard to tell, likely worse than the extrapolated PPG to full season but better than what we saw for first 31 games.

We don't know anything for sure. I have said before, those final games were not representative of the rest of the season. If RDZ had to play 2 games a week with what Frank had would he have done better? Possibly - he's a better manager IMHO, but it's not a given. You can't necessarily play front foot football while playing 2 games a week and losing all your offensive players to injuries.

 

[Raziel]

Fine but that's not been the case in my example, I literally said RDZ needs better and the squad needs balance, then we end up back down the yellow brick road of Frank not being criticised enough.

Its like nightmare on sesame Street

Simply put:

- Frank was brick
- RDZ is better
- We have overspent on players who have subsequently not shown up
- Spending big does not mean spending well as last years window proved
- We have not got to grips with injuries (we need to badly)
- We have a MASSIVELY unbalanced squad
- We have had to rely in 3 season on really really crap loans (Werner, Tel, Muani)
- In order to hit any heights consistently and to give RDZ any real chance of not just relying on magic from the dugout, we need to improve on many areas and address the balance

* this is not a defence of Thomas Frank

Mate, for whatever reason, you took that way too personally ..

- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Somewhat, too many similar midfielders, weak in wide sections, hard to fully measure without everyone fit
- Yes
- Yes

Could refute what you said re my statements but @Gazza Dazzla covered most of it ..

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

*Sigh* we know RDZ is a better coach. But I'm absolutely sure, even under him, results would have reverted to the mean eventually. And we will be in a similar position next season if we do not strengthen and get to grips with our injuries.

What ever the metrics say, the eye test said to me that the Leeds performance was very similar to the Sunderland one earlier in the season. I think the most decisive changes from RDZ was to bring in Kinsky in goal and super Kev as well as turning the negativity on its head. Kinsky saved a point Vs Leeds and 2 Vs Everton. Had he not done so, we would have been relegated. And yes Frank could have favoured those 2 as well but Ange hadn't before. And although Frank fell into cycle of negativity that eventually consumed him, there were mitigations too, I mean the loss to injuries of forward players such as Odobert ( just when he was starting to come good), Kudus, (who had been playing well), added to Maddison not playing, Kulu not playing and Solanke barely playing.

We were still not great up front in those final games even though we played on the front foot. I mean Palhinha scored to give us 2 wins from Set pieces, similar to what he did under Frank. And this is written by someone who has been and is a big of De Zerbi.

You could see clearly we were creaking towards results and mistakes still being made that could have undermined RDZ, over a longer sample size it will 100% happen more and be to the detriment of the work RDZ is trying to do. Its not enough that RDZ will just be better, he needs to be backed and this squad need major work

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Mate, for whatever reason, you took that way too personally ..

- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Somewhat, too many similar midfielders, weak in wide sections, hard to fully measure without everyone fit
- Yes
- Yes

Could refute what you said re my statements but @Gazza Dazzla covered most of it ..

Not taking anything personally, taking it as a reply and replying back.

 

[Robspur12]

It wasn’t just that he deserved to be sacked, as if we slipped to 12th or something. It’s that he very nearly relegated us. And people will still talk like the squad wasn’t good enough and what else can we expect…

We have finished 17th twice under 2 different managers with different styles. The common theme? Injuries have shorn both of their best players. That's what needs to change next season as well as strengthening certain areas if we want to compete with the big boys

 

[Raziel]

We don't know anything for sure. I have said before, those final games were not representative of the rest of the season. If RDZ had to play 2 games a week with what Frank had would he have done better? Possibly - he's a better manager IMHO, but it's not a given. You can't necessarily play front foot football while playing 2 games a week and losing all your offensive players to injuries.

There is not enough goals in it, I think that's a fair statement

Tel, Kudus, Odobert, even Savino who we are looking at are not high scoring wide players, Richi is good for low double figures, Solanke had one top season. We either need to spread the goals around or get CF's and a 10 (say MGW) that have higher output numbers.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

We have finished 17th twice under 2 different managers with different styles. The common theme? Injuries have shorn both of their best players. That's what needs to change next season as well as strengthening certain areas if we want to compete with the big boys

I don’t think that analysis sufficiently takes into account destroying the confidence of the team and making them play below their station. The players were capable of more and knew it.

Of course the injuries played a massive part in both seasons. But the fear on the pitch and in the stands is something I’ve never seen before. The complete uncertainty of who should be where, the inability to play out, the record low numbers of XG. That wasn’t the injuries.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I just still find it surprising that ‘we move on’ because the guy was sacked, when we very nearly got relegated. I personally still want to know what went wrong in that appointment, because at least two of the main decision makers are still here. How could they not see it? That is what concerns me. It was SO bad, such a disastrous decision and bad fit, and I just don’t understand how people in power at our club could have let it happen.

I am willing to crowd fund one of these for you with TF picture on

 

[Robspur12]

I don’t think that analysis sufficiently takes into account destroying the confidence of the team and making them play below their station. The players were capable of more and knew it.

This is just flim flam for which there is no actual evidence to back up. I cant analyse things where evidence doesn't exist. The facts are that both seasons were blighted by injuries. This season though the competition to remain in the PL was a lot stronger than last.

I am out of this discussion.