Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[johnola]

the biggest concern for me is that if there is a second vote, and their will be. Those who primarily benefit from membership of the union persuade, instead of trying to force the win via hectoring and bullying and presenting absolute garbage revisionist nonsense to the voters. The majority of votes got off their arses to majority to assert EU membership was a negative to them personally.

It’s going to be a hard road to rejoin and looking at the nonsensical conspiracy nut nonsense above I have zero confidence in a coherent argument to be made for it.

The ‘but I lost out’ argument doesn’t wash either.

There is also the issue of sending our youth off to fight Russia which is coming fairly soon.

 

[thfcsteff]

Manipulation implies people voting a certain way due to influence or pressure rather than their own consideration and weighing of arguments. Which does them a complete diservice and is devoid of any evidence. Actually in many ways, the referendum result was entirely predictable because it was significantly divided in terms of voter choice by those that were doing well voting for the status quo and those doing poorly voting for significant change. Maybe the fact that a majority of those casting their vote went for radical change reflects a failure of the EU experiment to improve the lives of the majority.

EU related policies driving the influx of low paid workers from eastern and southern memberstates impacted those that were already struggling. That isn't manipulation. It is just an unavoidable fact.

While any election or referendum campaign will feature exagerations, if anything it was the remain campaign that attempted fear-based coercion based on predictions of economic and societal impact that have subsequently been proven manifestly false. E.g. world bank data showing headline GDP growth in UK vs peer countries - Brexit has barely registered and if anything there is a slight upwards trend in the UK versus euro peers in recent years.

Meanwhile, the "red bus" is still used as a symbol of leave campaign "lies" even though the NHS budget was incresed by significantly more than that claimed in the wake of Brexit. Now being fair that was due to Covid and subsequent rebaselining of budgets rather than a conscious decision to implement the promises of Brexit, but nevertheless the fact remains that the NHS budget has been increased by an eyewatering amount following Brexit.

I had a long, long reply, with various links and the like...I deleted it.
This is not worth the time.
We will get nowhere as neither of us has a fundamental agreement on any areas of the specific issue.
You seem to believe I am trying to insult people, and I do not find your facts remotely compelling or accurate to be honest. Further, your definition of manipulation lines up differently to mine, and as such, we fundamentally disagree.
So I'll take this moment to say that I will happily agree respectfully to disagree and move on.

 

[Gutter Boy]

the biggest concern for me is that if there is a second vote, and their will be. Those who primarily benefit from membership of the union persuade, instead of trying to force the win via hectoring and bullying and presenting absolute garbage revisionist nonsense to the voters. The majority of votes got off their arses to majority to assert EU membership was a negative to them personally.

It’s going to be a hard road to rejoin and looking at the nonsensical conspiracy nut nonsense above I have zero confidence in a coherent argument to be made for it.

The ‘but I lost out’ argument doesn’t wash either.

There is also the issue of sending our youth off to fight Russia which is coming fairly soon.

If the EU was any good, it would be an easy argument.

But - we'll make the bosses richer by social dumping from poorer countries is a hard sell to the 95%. But trickle down...

 

[LutonSpurs]

You don't have to like the EU to also beleive Brexit was and is economic self harm. The EU could do with reform. As could our FPTP and House of Lords and Monarchy. That doesn't mean we should celebrate soemthing we were pretty certain would make most people poorer. And it has.

So if your dislike of the EU is so strong and is based on soemthing tangible then fine. And also if any of the things you wanted to happened have done then how has that benefited you?

There won't be much response to those points as we know it's been an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

the biggest concern for me is that if there is a second vote, and their will be. Those who primarily benefit from membership of the union persuade, instead of trying to force the win via hectoring and bullying and presenting absolute garbage revisionist nonsense to the voters. The majority of votes got off their arses to majority to assert EU membership was a negative to them personally.

It’s going to be a hard road to rejoin and looking at the nonsensical conspiracy nut nonsense above I have zero confidence in a coherent argument to be made for it.

The ‘but I lost out’ argument doesn’t wash either.

There is also the issue of sending our youth off to fight Russia which is coming fairly soon.

If there was a further referendum i'm sure it will end up in the same sh*tshow fracturing that entailed in the wake of the first referendum.

Rejoin is a completely different kettle of fish from "remaining" too. New member states are under a legal obligation to join the Euro as soon as they meet the economic convergence criteria, which the UK would meet from day-1. Just that alone would likely put a big (but not insurmountable) spanner in the works for a rejoin campaign in the eyes of many voters.

I honestly think the ship has sailed on the UK's membership of the EU for generations if not forever.

I think many realise that. Hence why Khan is suggesting that Labour whack rejoin in their manifesto for the next election which would allow a government to implement rejoining with less than half of voter support without a referendum.

 

[monkeybarry]

This alone makes me think twice about this shambles of a mayor including the sharp increase in crime and specifically knife crime .

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They were both brick there.
I can answer her question, "what does the mayor want me to say" very simply - instead of using vague terms "like" (etc), use the correct terminology, which would be Child Sexual Exploitation (CSE).
The phrase "gangs like Rotherham" immediately brings with assumptions based on race and religion.
The phrase CSE is accurate.

I know to many lay people that may sound hiding behind semantics; in Government you have to be precise, the words and decisions we make have significant impact, so precision is paramount.

I do feel Kahn could have been more helpful however, at the second or third time of asking he could have posseted "do you mean cases in which the criteria for CSE is met".
London and the Sth East are very complex and CSE is deeply embedded within County Lines Gangs - that is distinct from the Rape Gangs in Rotherham et al. The purpose is different. The actions are different. The associations of the perpetrators are different.

Her question should have been "how many gangs in London do we have where CSE is their primary or significant intent".
Pretty easy.

 

[Gutter Boy]

You don't have to like the EU to also beleive Brexit was and is economic self harm. The EU could do with reform. As could our FPTP and House of Lords and Monarchy. That doesn't mean we should celebrate soemthing we were pretty certain would make most people poorer. And it has.

So if your dislike of the EU is so strong and is based on soemthing tangible then fine. And also if any of the things you wanted to happened have done then how has that benefited you?

There won't be much response to those points as we know it's been an unmitigated disaster.

There's been some tentative moves towards nationalisation (GB Energy, trains). That's steps in the right direction

The pivot economically towards Asia-Pacific partners also strategically makes a lot of sense

The EU is just German corporatism, driven with the zeal of French statism. It's not a healthy place to be current or future

I do like love european countries. Its just supra-national projects, especially those driven by neo-liberalism that i see as being dangerous. Id be happy to see a looser alignment of liberal democracies - i.e EU plus Japan, Korea, Brazil, Canada etc. Just nothing dictating (right-wing) economic policies

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I had a long, long reply, with various links and the like...I deleted it.
This is not worth the time.
We will get nowhere as neither of us has a fundamental agreement on any areas of the specific issue.
You seem to believe I am trying to insult people, and I do not find your facts remotely compelling or accurate to be honest. Further, your definition of manipulation lines up differently to mine, and as such, we fundamentally disagree.
So I'll take this moment to say that I will happily agree respectfully to disagree and move on.

Just use the SillyGpt....it's a lot quicker.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Just use the SillyGpt....it's a lot quicker.

kin hell, just spat my coffee out.........tremendous

 

[Gazza]

There's been some tentative moves towards nationalisation (GB Energy, trains). That's steps in the right direction

The pivot economically towards Asia-Pacific partners also strategically makes a lot of sense

The EU is just German corporatism, driven with the zeal of French statism. It's not a healthy place to be current or future

I do like love european countries. Its just supra-national projects, especially those driven by neo-liberalism that i see as being dangerous. Id be happy to see a looser alignment of liberal democracies - i.e EU plus Japan, Korea, Brazil, Canada etc. Just nothing dictating (right-wing) economic policies

Or left wing either. Same bird different wings.