Silly McSilly Face
Eidur Gudjohnsen
Leave elite? The literal "establishment" campaigned to Remain. And leave was far stronger with lower paid, working class demographics.
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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
It was an individual choice brokered off the back of limited knowledge, the refusal of people to accept that whatever you might want you cannot just 'take it' (i.e. there are systems and -however undesirable one might find them- protocols in place), generational anger at past horrors done to the working class, and some very easy 'boogeymen' as 'protagonists'. I would actually say that it was less a 'choice' and more a supremely well-marketed set of lies directed towards people with genuine grievances.
Again, this is not about whether those who wanted to leave were right or wrong, it is about the fact that the architects behind it didn't give a fukk about those they claimed to represent, because they will always be stations and stations 'above' the fray.
Where we are today -divided and fractured, economies teetering on the edge of collapse for the average person- is not a mistake.
The important thing is for widespread cognitive recognition of what has happened and why it has happened so as perhaps it can start to stop happening.
It isn't about blaming people who voted 'leave', it really isn't. But it is very much about seeing why that has contributed to this...
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
...manipulated...cruelly...as is always the way through time...same story, different vehicle...
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thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
You know, I consider Nigel Farage to be the person who has created the current global situation we find ourselves in.
He showed that you could, in fact, succeed with a set of metrics others had thought impossible even by previously extreme political standards...taken dispassionately, Brexit was a masterclass...
Baleforce
Terry Naylor
He's a puppet, albeit a very effective one, but he was nothing without the Russian money.
Putin was the mastermind.
Silly McSilly Face
Eidur Gudjohnsen
That old chestnut, eh? When people have a different view, and then exercise that view in a democratic process, i guess it is comforting (but patronising) to believe that they were too dim or uneducated to make the "right decision".
Silly McSilly Face
Eidur Gudjohnsen
You talk about the "architects". It was Cameron, a staunch remainer, who was the architect of the referendum. And the Lib Dems, the most pro-EU party, that consistently campaigned for referendums on EU treaty membership going forward in 2010. Clegg and Cameron conspired to give the people a say. They are the real architects of Brexit.
Silly McSilly Face
Eidur Gudjohnsen
NIgel Farage what exactly?
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
If that is what you solely extrapolate from the word 'manipulation' then that is yours to own.
Do you think the majority of working-class British people have benefited and prospered in the ways they were told they would at the time? Genuine question. And an important one. Promises were made -big, simple ones that looked great on paper. Have they been delivered? Was it ever possible to deliver them in any reasonable time-frame? Again @Silly McSilly Face , and I've made this point further above, this is not a 'blame game', it's about trying to realise what actually happened and get the possible results for everybody moving forward.
Here's an op-ed from 2016. I won't assume your feelings on it, I'll just place it for the interest/purpose of debate.
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-eu-working-class-culture-hijacked-help-elite
Debate the point, disagree with it, all good. But denigrating it as some sort of 'anti' statement against a differing opinion?
I think that's poor form.
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thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
Yes he was. I agree. And have said so MANY times here back in those times. I know you would not have seen those. His laziness to take up the various fights and debates necessary in Brussels and beyond (using the vague notion that if there were no referendum, the far-right would get serious power in the UK) was a dereliction. He let the country down by essentially throwing open a very open referendum topic to an audience who saw the broad strokes but not the details. There is a very convincing argument to be had that the whole proliferation and amplification of UKIP, coupled with Farage's knowledge of the European Parliament, were the perfect platform off which to destabilize and manipulate Cameron into his action. But yes, Cameron was most certainly part of the problem. 'Architect'? I'd call him a blustering and confused on-the-ground project manager.
FWIW I consider Cameron to be quite near the top of a list of architects who didn't give a fukk about the people they were meant to represent; if he did, he'd have tried harder than the lazy gamble he took.
Most people (myself included) don't know every aspect of global politics. But this was a new level of 'simplification' which ended up being built around several other dog-whistling constructs that in the end did not deliver what many Brexiteers wanted either!
I am not looking to judge anyone, I am looking to see if there's a way to move a seriously divided and polarised society forward. Part of that has to be to recognize what happened with that referendum. Without blaming anyone other than the architects of it.
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robp135
Peter Taylor
Cameron went to the EU asking for a pause on immigration for a period of time to avoid Brexit and they said no.
The leaders of the leave campaign were elite. That's the contention Silly.
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
I mean, there's more to it than that...he didn't quite ask for a 'pause on immigration' rather than a series of initiatives over 7 years which (IMO) were designed to quench his fear that UKIP would take votes from him. He was (IMO) playing to a gallery in that respect which was not necessary. I am NOT saying reforms were not up for discussion, but what he was asking for was essentially to appease supporters of a right-wing populist party. Again, IMO.
robp135
Peter Taylor
EU could have played ball and avoided Brexit though.
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
If only life were as simple as a single sentence...
robp135
Peter Taylor
It’s usually a lot simpler than the politicians make it.
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
Which is the paradox. Imagine a roomful of people knowing the binary simplicity behind solving a problem, yet the only one who has the power to solve it insists on complicating matters beyond scope and recognition.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
So are all politicians by that definition. Remember Remain had all 4 major political parties (Con, Lab, SNP, LD) behind it, whereas Leave was just a handful of Tory and Labour backbenchers, plus a Green lord.
Indeed. Leave also had The Daily Mail. The Sun. Daily Express. The Telegraph.
Silly McSilly Face
Eidur Gudjohnsen
Manipulation implies people voting a certain way due to influence or pressure rather than their own consideration and weighing of arguments. Which does them a complete diservice and is devoid of any evidence. Actually in many ways, the referendum result was entirely predictable because it was significantly divided in terms of voter choice by those that were doing well voting for the status quo and those doing poorly voting for significant change. Maybe the fact that a majority of those casting their vote went for radical change reflects a failure of the EU experiment to improve the lives of the majority.
EU related policies driving the influx of low paid workers from eastern and southern memberstates impacted those that were already struggling. That isn't manipulation. It is just an unavoidable fact.
While any election or referendum campaign will feature exagerations, if anything it was the remain campaign that attempted fear-based coercion based on predictions of economic and societal impact that have subsequently been proven manifestly false. E.g. world bank data showing headline GDP growth in UK vs peer countries - Brexit has barely registered and if anything there is a slight upwards trend in the UK versus euro peers in recent years.
Meanwhile, the "red bus" is still used as a symbol of leave campaign "lies" even though the NHS budget was incresed by significantly more than that claimed in the wake of Brexit. Now being fair that was due to Covid and subsequent rebaselining of budgets rather than a conscious decision to implement the promises of Brexit, but nevertheless the fact remains that the NHS budget has been increased by an eyewatering amount following Brexit.
