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What was the trigger in our downward trend?

Hiring Ange, who most of us had never heard of.

Him being the next pick after Conte and Jose was an underwhelming lowering of expectations.

I hope we never hire from such an obscure situation again.
with respect Ange did a lot for the club, and more than the "top class" managers you list ever did. It has to be said though Ange was the guy we got when every one else turned us down...

The club has only recently acknowledged its actual situation, as per the public statement by Vinai about the state of the finances.

Levy, for all of his business genius, just didn't see Covid coming, and as a result he has mortgaged the club up to the hilt - not on stadium costs but in terms of the way player deals have been set up. We're something like £300m in the red for money owed on players, some of which we no longer have. This, plus the frugal approach to wages has meant a steady spiral down in terms of quality.
 
with respect Ange did a lot for the club, and more than the "top class" managers you list ever did. It has to be said though Ange was the guy we got when every one else turned us down...

The club has only recently acknowledged its actual situation, as per the public statement by Vinai about the state of the finances.

Levy, for all of his business genius, just didn't see Covid coming, and as a result he has mortgaged the club up to the hilt - not on stadium costs but in terms of the way player deals have been set up. We're something like £300m in the red for money owed on players, some of which we no longer have. This, plus the frugal approach to wages has meant a steady spiral down in terms of quality.
Nobody saw Covid coming. The money owed on players isn't the reason for the downwards spiral, it's the way it was spent. Paying higher wages would have us even further in debt.

There's an easy way out of any financial trouble and that is to get an outside investor onboard. A shares issue for 10% of the club would clear most of that debt.
 
Fans wanting people out.

Nuno out. Conte out. Ange out. Levy out. Frank out. Tudor out.

When/will fans understand that stability is the missing piece, not a new face.
Fans never know what they want, it’s why you shouldn’t overly listen to them. Too judgemental, prejudice and excuses idiocy for passion. That said there is no club without them, such is the love/hate relationship of following football
 
Not replacing players with others of equivalent quality.

To pinpoint the moment this started, it's when we sold Walker in 2017 and replaced him with Aurier. That was a downgrade in quality, which showed as Walker went on to become a consistent part of one of the most dominant teams of all time in Guardiola's City, while both Aurier and the preexisting replacement, Trippier, struggled to reach Walker's levels.

Then came the horrendous no-signings windows of summer 2018 and Jan 2019. After that, the trend is pretty grim...

Walker (sold 2017) -> Aurier (2017) -> Doherty (2020) -> Emerson (2021) -> Porro (2023) - all downgrades on the original.
Verts (left 2020) -> Joe Rodon (2020) -> Van de Ven (2023) - downgrades here too.
Toby (left 2021) -> Romero (2021) - probably one of the few sideways moves in terms of quality.
Dembele (left 2019) -> Ndombele (2019) -> Bissouma (2022) - downgrades.
Wanyama (left 2020) -> Hojbjerg (2020) -> Bentancur (2022) -> Palhinha (2025) - downgrades.
Eriksen (left 2020) -> Lo Celso (2019) -> Maddison (2023) -> Simons (2025) - downgrades.
Lloris (left 2023) -> Vicario (2023) -> Kinsky (2024) - major downgrade.
Kane (left 2023) -> Richy (2022) -> Solanke (2024) -> major downgrades.
Son (left 2025) -> Kudus (2025) -> major downgrade.

In every case, the logic involved was as follows - players at the top level are expensive, wage-wise and transfer fee-wise. So we'll instead go for one of two categories of players - young prospects who are cheap wages-wise, and average players who will do a job despite having flaws, and are also cheap-ish, wages wise.

But the problem is, this approach downgrades quality because the standards fall. The new player is straight up worse than his predecessor - then you buy his replacement/rotation, who is also worse, who then ends up becoming the started and the cycle continues. Gradually all the standards of that glorious Poch team were lost, and we are where we are today.

It's a dereliction of duty that took place across 10 years.
 
Not replacing players with others of equivalent quality.

To pinpoint the moment this started, it's when we sold Walker in 2017 and replaced him with Aurier. That was a downgrade in quality, which showed as Walker went on to become a consistent part of one of the most dominant teams of all time in Guardiola's City, while both Aurier and the preexisting replacement, Trippier, struggled to reach Walker's levels.

Then came the horrendous no-signings windows of summer 2018 and Jan 2019. After that, the trend is pretty grim...

Walker (sold 2017) -> Aurier (2017) -> Doherty (2020) -> Emerson (2021) -> Porro (2023) - all downgrades on the original.
Verts (left 2020) -> Joe Rodon (2020) -> Van de Ven (2023) - downgrades here too.
Toby (left 2021) -> Romero (2021) - probably one of the few sideways moves in terms of quality.
Dembele (left 2019) -> Ndombele (2019) -> Bissouma (2022) - downgrades.
Wanyama (left 2020) -> Hojbjerg (2020) -> Bentancur (2022) -> Palhinha (2025) - downgrades.
Eriksen (left 2020) -> Lo Celso (2019) -> Maddison (2023) -> Simons (2025) - downgrades.
Lloris (left 2023) -> Vicario (2023) -> Kinsky (2024) - major downgrade.
Kane (left 2023) -> Richy (2022) -> Solanke (2024) -> major downgrades.
Son (left 2025) -> Kudus (2025) -> major downgrade.

In every case, the logic involved was as follows - players at the top level are expensive, wage-wise and transfer fee-wise. So we'll instead go for one of two categories of players - young prospects who are cheap wages-wise, and average players who will do a job despite having flaws, and are also cheap-ish, wages wise.

But the problem is, this approach downgrades quality because the standards fall. The new player is straight up worse than his predecessor - then you buy his replacement/rotation, who is also worse, who then ends up becoming the started and the cycle continues. Gradually all the standards of that glorious Poch team were lost, and we are where we are today.

It's a dereliction of duty that took place across 10 years.

This is cherry-picking, though. We’ve always been a bit scattergun, a bit opportunistic, a bit stingy, and sometimes very lucky. You’ve picked the nine standout players from an era when our transfer logic was just as you describe it, but we just happened to be able to field a good and consistent starting eleven a fair amount of the time, as fortune dictated.
 
This is cherry-picking, though. We’ve always been a bit scattergun, a bit opportunistic, a bit stingy, and sometimes very lucky. You’ve picked the nine standout players from an era when our transfer logic was just as you describe it, but we just happened to be able to field a good and consistent starting eleven a fair amount of the time, as fortune dictated.

Far from it. I'd break our transfers down into roughly 3 periods - 2001-2011 (ish), 2011-2016, and 2016-present.

That first period, our transfer logic was absolutely scattergun, though the rough common thread was trying to buy undervalued young talent. The market dynamics worked in our favour, and combined with early attempts at data-driven scouting (with Comolli), we picked up the occasional gem that, when it came together, formed the core of that Redknapp side - Modric, Bale et al.

That middle period, from 2011 to 2016, was almost a golden era in the sense of the majority of our signings being hits. Data-driven scouting and player identification reached its apex, with Michael Edwards (and then, Paul Mitchell) leading the acquisition of a core of genuine, undervalued talent, from Walker (2011) to Lloris, Dembele and Verts (2012) to Alderweireld, Son and Alli (2015). Kane's emergence set the seal on it, but there was a strategy at play that meant more players were hits, than misses. Even bit-part players like Davies, Trippier, Wimmer et al were dependable and became pillars of the team later on. Yes there were interludes like Franco Baldini in between, but it was an era where we seemed to have a plan.

2016 and on was when both the above transfer experts (Edwards and Mitchell) left, and we brought in the execrable Steve 'I hate January' Hitchen and his ilk to run scouting. We can trace our downfall to that moment, as well as the decisions to pass on the likes of Sadio Mane and Georginio Wijnaldum for N'Koudou and Sissoko.

From that point on, with the diktat of 'cheap wages' always an iron law at Spurs, we went on a spree of signing often bad players that no one else wanted, for very good reasons. Unable to shop in the top tier, and increasingly locked out of the truly talented youngsters (because by then everyone was looking for the next Bale and Modric, and had the money to outbid us), we stocked up on average players who ended up doing us in.
 
Not replacing players with others of equivalent quality.

To pinpoint the moment this started, it's when we sold Walker in 2017 and replaced him with Aurier. That was a downgrade in quality, which showed as Walker went on to become a consistent part of one of the most dominant teams of all time in Guardiola's City, while both Aurier and the preexisting replacement, Trippier, struggled to reach Walker's levels.

Then came the horrendous no-signings windows of summer 2018 and Jan 2019. After that, the trend is pretty grim...

Walker (sold 2017) -> Aurier (2017) -> Doherty (2020) -> Emerson (2021) -> Porro (2023) - all downgrades on the original.
Verts (left 2020) -> Joe Rodon (2020) -> Van de Ven (2023) - downgrades here too.
Toby (left 2021) -> Romero (2021) - probably one of the few sideways moves in terms of quality.
Dembele (left 2019) -> Ndombele (2019) -> Bissouma (2022) - downgrades.
Wanyama (left 2020) -> Hojbjerg (2020) -> Bentancur (2022) -> Palhinha (2025) - downgrades.
Eriksen (left 2020) -> Lo Celso (2019) -> Maddison (2023) -> Simons (2025) - downgrades.
Lloris (left 2023) -> Vicario (2023) -> Kinsky (2024) - major downgrade.
Kane (left 2023) -> Richy (2022) -> Solanke (2024) -> major downgrades.
Son (left 2025) -> Kudus (2025) -> major downgrade.

In every case, the logic involved was as follows - players at the top level are expensive, wage-wise and transfer fee-wise. So we'll instead go for one of two categories of players - young prospects who are cheap wages-wise, and average players who will do a job despite having flaws, and are also cheap-ish, wages wise.

But the problem is, this approach downgrades quality because the standards fall. The new player is straight up worse than his predecessor - then you buy his replacement/rotation, who is also worse, who then ends up becoming the started and the cycle continues. Gradually all the standards of that glorious Poch team were lost, and we are where we are today.

It's a dereliction of duty that took place across 10 years.
Kudus isn't even a replacement for Son, he's filling in a space we never had previously or if you're being generous you could say he replaced Lamela and Moura, neither of whom were guaranteed starters or of the required quality at the time.

We haven't replaced Son at all, but have some young "talent" in the position to possibly one day proven up to the task ie. Odobert, Tel and Moore.
 
Far from it. I'd break our transfers down into roughly 3 periods - 2001-2011 (ish), 2011-2016, and 2016-present.

That first period, our transfer logic was absolutely scattergun, though the rough common thread was trying to buy undervalued young talent. The market dynamics worked in our favour, and combined with early attempts at data-driven scouting (with Comolli), we picked up the occasional gem that, when it came together, formed the core of that Redknapp side - Modric, Bale et al.

That middle period, from 2011 to 2016, was almost a golden era in the sense of the majority of our signings being hits. Data-driven scouting and player identification reached its apex, with Michael Edwards (and then, Paul Mitchell) leading the acquisition of a core of genuine, undervalued talent, from Walker (2011) to Lloris, Dembele and Verts (2012) to Alderweireld, Son and Alli (2015). Kane's emergence set the seal on it, but there was a strategy at play that meant more players were hits, than misses. Even bit-part players like Davies, Trippier, Wimmer et al were dependable and became pillars of the team later on. Yes there were interludes like Franco Baldini in between, but it was an era where we seemed to have a plan.

2016 and on was when both the above transfer experts (Edwards and Mitchell) left, and we brought in the execrable Steve 'I hate January' Hitchen and his ilk to run scouting. We can trace our downfall to that moment, as well as the decisions to pass on the likes of Sadio Mane and Georginio Wijnaldum for N'Koudou and Sissoko.

From that point on, with the diktat of 'cheap wages' always an iron law at Spurs, we went on a spree of signing often bad players that no one else wanted, for very good reasons. Unable to shop in the top tier, and increasingly locked out of the truly talented youngsters (because by then everyone was looking for the next Bale and Modric, and had the money to outbid us), we stocked up on average players who ended up doing us in.

Your “golden era” includes 2013, when we spent the Gareth Bale loot on Paulinho, Chadli, Soldado, Capoue, Chiriches, the rabona chappy, and Eriksen. Scattergun, with one very obviously good buy.

And however much Hitchen was a downgrade, the most important thing here is that, as you say, in the early 2010s we could confidently outbid the bulk of EPL sides, and by the early 2020s we very much couldn’t.
 
Your “golden era” includes 2013, when we spent the Gareth Bale loot on Paulinho, Chadli, Soldado, Capoue, Chiriches, the rabona chappy, and Eriksen. Scattergun, with one very obviously good buy.

And however much Hitchen was a downgrade, the most important thing here is that, as you say, in the early 2010s we could confidently outbid the bulk of EPL sides, and by the early 2020s we very much couldn’t.
Could we? Did we ever? I don't really remember that being the case. Did we ever get into a bidding war over players in the 2010s? I honestly don't recall this.
 
Far from it. I'd break our transfers down into roughly 3 periods - 2001-2011 (ish), 2011-2016, and 2016-present.

That first period, our transfer logic was absolutely scattergun, though the rough common thread was trying to buy undervalued young talent. The market dynamics worked in our favour, and combined with early attempts at data-driven scouting (with Comolli), we picked up the occasional gem that, when it came together, formed the core of that Redknapp side - Modric, Bale et al.

That middle period, from 2011 to 2016, was almost a golden era in the sense of the majority of our signings being hits. Data-driven scouting and player identification reached its apex, with Michael Edwards (and then, Paul Mitchell) leading the acquisition of a core of genuine, undervalued talent, from Walker (2011) to Lloris, Dembele and Verts (2012) to Alderweireld, Son and Alli (2015). Kane's emergence set the seal on it, but there was a strategy at play that meant more players were hits, than misses. Even bit-part players like Davies, Trippier, Wimmer et al were dependable and became pillars of the team later on. Yes there were interludes like Franco Baldini in between, but it was an era where we seemed to have a plan.

2016 and on was when both the above transfer experts (Edwards and Mitchell) left, and we brought in the execrable Steve 'I hate January' Hitchen and his ilk to run scouting. We can trace our downfall to that moment, as well as the decisions to pass on the likes of Sadio Mane and Georginio Wijnaldum for N'Koudou and Sissoko.

From that point on, with the diktat of 'cheap wages' always an iron law at Spurs, we went on a spree of signing often bad players that no one else wanted, for very good reasons. Unable to shop in the top tier, and increasingly locked out of the truly talented youngsters (because by then everyone was looking for the next Bale and Modric, and had the money to outbid us), we stocked up on average players who ended up doing us in.
I go back to my point that the stadium went WAY over budget, mainly due to the redesign chasing the impossible dream of an NFL franchise. That overspend led to all sorts of cost cutting in areas where the head honcho hoped we wouldn't notice (youth setup, medical, scouting, data, recruitment). During a really key period for our club we had pretty much nothing in terms of youth players coming through and no good information on which to base incoming transfers.

Apparently Paratici couldn't believe our (lack of) professional setup when he arrived at Spurs. He had a huge amount of rebuilding to do.
 
Could we? Did we ever? I don't really remember that being the case. Did we ever get into a bidding war over players in the 2010s? I honestly don't recall this.

Are bidding wars usually public? There’s definitely more competition now for promising youngsters, no idea how that manifests in the behind-the-scenes behaviour of clubs and agents.
 
I go back to my point that the stadium went WAY over budget, mainly due to the redesign chasing the impossible dream of an NFL franchise. That overspend led to all sorts of cost cutting in areas where the head honcho hoped we wouldn't notice (youth setup, medical, scouting, data, recruitment). During a really key period for our club we had pretty much nothing in terms of youth players coming through and no good information on which to base incoming transfers.

Apparently Paratici couldn't believe our (lack of) professional setup when he arrived at Spurs. He had a huge amount of rebuilding to do.

Yep. This also tracks in terms of the departure of experienced and successful staff to other clubs - Michael Edwards was poached by Liverpool, Alex Inglethorpe left our youth setup (also for Liverpool), John McDermott went to the FA. In all those cases, they also took subordinates with them, further weakening us.

In all cases, it felt like Levy was taking his eye off the ball and losing the edge he once had in terms of identifying and securing top backroom talent. The mismanagement of Steve Hitchen et al were really when the cumulative loss of experienced staff begin to hit us in public and obvious ways.
 
This is cherry-picking, though. We’ve always been a bit scattergun, a bit opportunistic, a bit stingy, and sometimes very lucky. You’ve picked the nine standout players from an era when our transfer logic was just as you describe it, but we just happened to be able to field a good and consistent starting eleven a fair amount of the time, as fortune dictated.

He is very good at that.
 
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