The 'If You Still Need to Purge Yourself Of Ange' Thread

[veryoldspur]

Did Ange succeed at Spurs?

That would depend on your definition of succeed. If Ange succeeded so did Ramos. I ask the question, did he leave us a better team than when he joined, and in my opinion he didn't. I hated the football under that man, and whilst I will thank him for a trophy, I see him as a failure

 

[Muttley]

Any manager should get at least a season to bed in their ideas, reconstruct the squad as best they can and show to some extent the path their football will take.

The comparison to Ange is faulty. Ange wasn't sacked on the results of last season alone. He was fired for the ever progressing downward turn in first results and then performances across both seasons.

For me, this is one of the most important posts on this thread. There is a massive over-emphasis on the way it finished and not the entire journey we had under Ange. It's the entire journey that is needed for the Ange assessment.

Let's take what would have happened next and wrap those 2 years of learning into a look forward. As an example, say Ange had decided to bring some of the better EL tactics into a sort of hybrid tactical system with Ange-ball for the new league campaign. What would have happened at the first sign of trouble? Would we have had to wait 4-5 months for him to adjust again? Probably. What new narrative would Ange have come up with to defend his tactical frailties and lack of dynamism in the hot seat. Would he have said that the stonecutter hadn't reached a hundred hits of the stone yet and eventually something will work in the 26/27 season? Would he have said that it was a brand new stone as we split the last one by winning the trophy? Let's be honest, there would have always been some sort of deflecting narrative from him. There always was, even though there was also a legitimacy to a lot of the mitigating circumstances he found himself working under. The injuries were totally compromising but they also deflected the light shining on his coaching.

I know I'm being a bit cynical about him, but I do feel like he was a little all over the place in the most important aspect of his job based on the entire 100 games we saw. That was coaching. He painted over the coaching cracks with the many narratives in my opinion. I genuinely hope Frank doesn't go down that same path.

 

[fernadez]

This is so fickle, I can't believe you actually wrote it.

Explain?

Accepting doens't mean I thought he should or wanted him to, just that I had come to terms with it and could see why the decision could be made to keep him.

The Brighton game brought things back into focus about what was happening in the league, what had been happening and based on the evidence at hand what was likely to happen.

My thoughts on the matter never changed.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

This is so fickle, I can't believe you actually wrote it.

Humans are fickle. While it is pretty futile and unfair to analyse the Brighton game what it did was bring a lot of people that had changed their minds in wake of joy of the cup win back to reality and remind them why they wanted him gone by that point. Its not that people were seriously using an analysis of the Brighton game to get round to "Ange out" its that having wobbled after the final and parade, they were all sat there watching us looking totally clueless and thinking "oh actually I've had to sit through months of this sh*t and on second thoughts i'm not prepared to risk sitting through another season of it by vocally backing Ange"

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Humans are fickle. While it is pretty futile and unfair to analyse the Brighton game what it did was bring a lot of people that had changed their minds in wake of joy of the cup win back to reality and remind them why they wanted him gone by that point. Its not that people were seriously using an analysis of the Brighton game to get round to "Ange out" its that having wobbled after the final and parade, they were all sat there watching us looking totally clueless and thinking "oh actually I've had to sit through months of this sh*t and on second thoughts i'm not prepared to risk sitting through another season of it by vocally backing Ange"

And the players were still tinkled

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

And the players were still tinkled

As I've said i'm sure for those that wobbled to Ange in after the final to Ange out after the Brighton game, it wasnt about that one game, it was about that game reminding them of all the games prior to the final....

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Yeah, thats the thing, Ange's system only looked vaguely workable for me for example when VDV was playing as that "ball over the top" wasnt such an obvious weapon when you have that recovery pace, saying that, just how common is it to get a 6ft plus CB with that sort of acceleration and sprint speed? He's a bit of a freak of nature.

But you don’t hire Ange because you want a highly flexible, pragmatic manager who is going to adjust his plan based on the pieces he is given. That’s what you hire Thomas Frank for.

You hire Ange (and Bielsa or similar types) because you want to take a bet that if they can get enough of their perfect pieces in place for enough games, the uncompromising belief in that way of playing football is going to lead to incredible consistency and out perform financial expectations. And if they don’t get those pieces, it probably isn’t going to work.

As I said, I am completely fine with the idea that Ange is the latter and not the former. And I get why people and the club would rather the former. All I am saying, is that Ange has a way of winning that is proven to work. He makes choices about who he is as a coach and they bring him success, and he should be judged against that. And I think he deserves respect. I will always take issue with people saying he’s ’not good enough’ or something similar when I don’t think it’s that at all. He is deliberately uncompromising, but that’s not the same as not being good enough.

 

[Raziel]

That would depend on your definition of succeed. If Ange succeeded so did Ramos. I ask the question, did he leave us a better team than when he joined, and in my opinion he didn't. I hated the football under that man, and whilst I will thank him for a trophy, I see him as a failure

So for someone who in the end (my opinion and club's) had to go, I disagree

His results -> EL & CL qualification, Domestic cup SF, EL winners. He took the 17 year monkey off our back, and he gave plenty of game time to Bergvall, Gray, Wilson, Tel that will likely pay off for us in long run.

He's left Frank in need of a good start, but he's reversed a bit of what would have been seen a slide since Poch era and the club is in a good position to reset and build from here (club itself probably needs to give Frank a couple of players).

And yes Ramos is similar, don't hear anyone not counting that trophy either.

 

[Raziel]

Think you need to be giving him a whole season.
Considering he came in November last season. To potentially sack him in November just comes across as trigger happy.

Amorim's results to this point (or at least to last couple of games of season) are worse than the last manager of Derby in the PL (one of the historically worse teams ever)

United absolutely can't afford to miss Europe again, they also (like us) may not have the buffer of three sides as bad as last season. If he's in bottom half in November, with no signs of team improvement, he's dead.

Wolves manager showed you don't need 18 months.

 

[veryoldspur]

Amorim's results to this point (or at least to last couple of games of season) are worse than the last manager of Derby in the PL (one of the historically worse teams ever)

United absolutely can't afford to miss Europe again, they also (like us) may not have the buffer of three sides as bad as last season. If he's in bottom half in November, with no signs of team improvement, he's dead.

Wolves manager showed you don't need 18 months.

Amorin has had a lot less time. I believe he is a far better manager than Ange

 

[Raziel]

Amorin has had a lot less time. I believe he is a far better manager than Ange

He may be, but he hasn't shown it in the PL (same complaint as against Ange)

 

[Mikey10]

Jesus fudging Christ there’s still people citing the Brighton game.

Which one? The one we lost on the last day of the season, or the one in October in which we threw away a 2 goal lead playing suicidal football?

 

[Mikey10]

This is so fickle, I can't believe you actually wrote it.

I can't believe anyone was swayed by the cup win. We had 18 months of evidence to say that he couldn't deal with the PL.

 

[Aldo]

But you don’t hire Ange because you want a highly flexible, pragmatic manager who is going to adjust his plan based on the pieces he is given. That’s what you hire Thomas Frank for.

You hire Ange (and Bielsa or similar types) because you want to take a bet that if they can get enough of their perfect pieces in place for enough games, the uncompromising belief in that way of playing football is going to lead to incredible consistency and out perform financial expectations. And if they don’t get those pieces, it probably isn’t going to work.

As I said, I am completely fine with the idea that Ange is the latter and not the former. And I get why people and the club would rather the former. All I am saying, is that Ange has a way of winning that is proven to work. He makes choices about who he is as a coach and they bring him success, and he should be judged against that. And I think he deserves respect. I will always take issue with people saying he’s ’not good enough’ or something similar when I don’t think it’s that at all. He is deliberately uncompromising, but that’s not the same as not being good enough.

Great post.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I can't believe anyone was swayed by the cup win. We had 18 months of evidence to say that he couldn't deal with the PL.

Just mad. ‘Can’t believe anyone would be swayed by the cup win’. You can’t see why some Tottenham fans might feel a bit of positivity towards the guy for getting us a trophy? Because we’ve just had so many of them in recent years?