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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

dawaxman said:
If they do, and I'm not sure that is correct... its secondary to their primary aim of obliterating Israel and all the Jews

ALL the Jews
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Their current position is that of a Palestinian state within the '67 boundaries as a stepping stone to a Palestinian state across the whole of the area.

It also rejects accusations of antisemitism and says it is against Zionism and Israeli expansion and suppression.

Not sure I swallow this in anything close to its entirety but a number of references have suggested that it has moved to a more secular foothold since 2006 and away from the ultra-jihadist positions from when it was an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and that there is a reformist element slowly changing things from the original.

Their is a hadith in their charter which says all Jews will die at the Day of Judgement but I think that is accepted to be Apocalypse End of Days rather than a week next Thursday sort of thing.
 
Lost Mango said:
Their current position is that of a Palestinian state within the '67 boundaries as a stepping stone to a Palestinian state across the whole of the area.

It also rejects accusations of antisemitism and says it is against Zionism and Israeli expansion and suppression.

Not sure I swallow this in anything close to its entirety but a number of references have suggested that it has moved to a more secular foothold since 2006 and away from the ultra-jihadist positions from when it was an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and that there is a reformist element slowly changing things from the original.

Their is a hadith in their charter which says all Jews will die at the Day of Judgement but I think that is accepted to be Apocalypse End of Days rather than a week next Thursday sort of thing.
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...and they just went and killed a bunch of Jewish people partying. Beheaded people, babies...think that tells you everything you need to know. Actions speak louder than words!
 
Lost Mango said:
Their current position is that of a Palestinian state within the '67 boundaries as a stepping stone to a Palestinian state across the whole of the area.

It also rejects accusations of antisemitism and says it is against Zionism and Israeli expansion and suppression.

Not sure I swallow this in anything close to its entirety but a number of references have suggested that it has moved to a more secular foothold since 2006 and away from the ultra-jihadist positions from when it was an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and that there is a reformist element slowly changing things from the original.

Their is a hadith in their charter which says all Jews will die at the Day of Judgement but I think that is accepted to be Apocalypse End of Days rather than a week next Thursday sort of thing.
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Sorry but what a complete and total load of old gonad*s

All of it
 
P.D. said:
They only have support because of hope and desperation, if those things are gone there would be little incentive for people to support them. I don't think you can fully remove them because Hamas as like most terrorists are a movement and people will always join those movements but they'll be far less influential. The same thing has happened with many terrorist groups in the past - look at Isis and Al Quaeda for example.
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The difference here is that they are funded and armed incredibly well. They don't need support from their own people and their own people are unlikely to be able to do much about it.

A better comparison would the the Taliban in Afghanistan. Nobody benefited from Taliban rule there except the Taliban. Much like Hamas, they were happy to oppress their own people and commit atrocities in the name of their sky fairy.

Half the US military went up against them, helped set up a real government and still got chased out of town.

Religious fanatics are like knotweed. You have to take out every single last one of them to avoid their virus from spreading.
 
SpurMeUp said:
...and they just went and killed a bunch of Jewish people partying. Beheaded people, babies...think that tells you everything you need to know. Actions speak louder than words!
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I agree actions speak louder than words.

The Israeli government bombed fleeing, innocent Gazans they ordered to evacuate from the north to the south, via ‘safe routes’. They entrapped them, mainly women and children. Human Rights Watch and reporters on the ground have reported that white phosphorous is being used in civilian areas. Illegal chemical weapons. Journalists who are reporting on this are being killed. Prominent figures on the ground in Gaza are having their content and/or accounts deleted for sharing the truth of the situation right now. No basic provisions for hospitals and infrastructure to run. But of course it’s deserved because the ‘majority’ of Gazans are supporters of Hamas. Even though 50% of the population are not of voting age and the last elections were held in 2006.

This is genocide and ethnic cleansing by every metric occurring right now. And yet we are attempting to silence and judge posters on here who are simply being human for seeing evil actions regardless of borders, ethnicity or religion. The world is broken when we only value the life and mourn the death of babies on one side.
 
AuroRaman said:
I agree actions speak louder than words.

The Israeli government bombed fleeing, innocent Gazans they ordered to evacuate from the north to the south, via ‘safe routes’. They entrapped them, mainly women and children. Human Rights Watch and reporters on the ground have reported that white phosphorous is being used in civilian areas. Illegal chemical weapons. Journalists who are reporting on this are being killed. Prominent figures on the ground in Gaza are having their content and/or accounts deleted for sharing the truth of the situation right now. No basic provisions for hospitals and infrastructure to run. But of course it’s deserved because the ‘majority’ of Gazans are supporters of Hamas. Even though 50% of the population are not of voting age and the last elections were held in 2006.

This is genocide and ethnic cleansing by every metric occurring right now. And yet we are attempting to silence and judge posters on here who are simply being human for seeing evil actions regardless of borders, ethnicity or religion. The world is broken when we only value the life and mourn the death of babies on one side.
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If Hamas weren't hiding amongst civilians, the civilians would be a lot safer.
 
SpurMeUp said:
You were having a go at someone who you seemed to treat as an opponent, trying to get them to see your side. When they actually share some views with you - these are the shades of grey.

Finding and building consensus is more important than trying to make people think as you do. People who have deep ties that resonate which you presumably don't have. Jewish schools are shut today due to in-groups doign their thing. An Israeli consulate worker was attacked in China. A teacher stabbed in France. There is a personal and real resonance to these things, that presumably doesn't affect you. Trying to tell people what they should think is forlorn. Consensus building is far more beneficial. You want to paint a picture of Israelis being wrong, but it is far more nuanced. With swathes of Israelis agreeing with your outsider's perspective. Yet you put them in the same pot as one entity that needs to be educated/humbled? This just perpetuates conflict and in-groups.
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So according to you I agree with swathes of Israelis. I agree. Wish there were even more. At least enough to get more people with similar views into power.

So I'm having a go, treated someone as an opponent you say.

What's your opinion on the statement "Palestine at the moment = hamas"? Which I see as just one of several... problematic(?) statements in the post I quoted.

I wonder how much consensus there is to be found between my opinion and "Palestine at the moment = hamas".

I would have thought that someone who cares about not perpetuating conflict and in-groups may have something to say in response to a sentence such as "Palestine at the moment = hamas".

Surely there must be something that can be said in response to that? I do get the feeling "problematic" just isn't the right description. Any suggestions? Any at all? I'm quite sure I don't like that kind of statement. Do you? But how to classify it, that's the conundrum. I get that tip of my tongue feeling, but can't quite find it.
 
AuroRaman said:
I agree actions speak louder than words.

The Israeli government bombed fleeing, innocent Gazans they ordered to evacuate from the north to the south, via ‘safe routes’. They entrapped them, mainly women and children. Human Rights Watch and reporters on the ground have reported that white phosphorous is being used in civilian areas. Illegal chemical weapons. Journalists who are reporting on this are being killed. Prominent figures on the ground in Gaza are having their content and/or accounts deleted for sharing the truth of the situation right now. No basic provisions for hospitals and infrastructure to run. But of course it’s deserved because the ‘majority’ of Gazans are supporters of Hamas. Even though 50% of the population are not of voting age and the last elections were held in 2006.

This is genocide and ethnic cleansing by every metric occurring right now. And yet we are attempting to silence and judge posters on here who are simply being human for seeing evil actions regardless of borders, ethnicity or religion. The world is broken when we only value the life and mourn the death of babies on one side.
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Tremendous post TBH mate. Its possible as a human to show extreme levels of empathy for both sides and not feel bullied into the idea of apparently picking a side.

People need to be more human, empathy should be indiscriminate and for that reason we absolutely have to acknowledge both sets of atrocities equally
 
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scaramanga said:
Not to my knowledge. Civilians have been caught up in attacks on military targets but that's not the same.
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Israeli military ordered the people of Northern Gaza 1.1 million to evacuate to Southern Gaza in 24 hours.

According to the UN, that can't take place without devastating human consequences. A special rapporteur said that forcible population transfers are a 'crime against humanity.

But not unlawful violence and intimidation against civilians in the pursuit of a political aim?
 
braineclipse said:
So according to you I agree with swathes of Israelis. I agree. Wish there were even more. At least enough to get more people with similar views into power.

So I'm having a go, treated someone as an opponent you say.

What's your opinion on the statement "Palestine at the moment = hamas"? Which I see as just one of several... problematic(?) statements in the post I quoted.

I wonder how much consensus there is to be found between my opinion and "Palestine at the moment = hamas".

I would have thought that someone who cares about not perpetuating conflict and in-groups may have something to say in response to a sentence such as "Palestine at the moment = hamas".

Surely there must be something that can be said in response to that? I do get the feeling "problematic" just isn't the right description. Any suggestions? Any at all? I'm quite sure I don't like that kind of statement. Do you? But how to classify it, that's the conundrum. I get that tip of my tongue feeling, but can't quite find it.
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You've taken my statement somewhat out of context but I understand that every word I write needs to be able to stand alone

The context of my statement was - when it comes to the current conflict Israel is fighting Hamas NOT Palestine

That was what I meant when I said Palestine at the moment = hamas

The Palestinian people are being used as pawns, human shields and much worse by their own leaders
 
braineclipse said:
Israeli military ordered the people of Northern Gaza 1.1 million to evacuate to Southern Gaza in 24 hours.

According to the UN, that can't take place without devastating human consequences. A special rapporteur said that forcible population transfers are a 'crime against humanity.

But not unlawful violence and intimidation against civilians in the pursuit of a political aim?
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You understand that it's an attempt to minimise civilian deaths.

Is it a perfect solution, no! But it's better than the alternatives

How would you want your country's army to respond if a bunch of terrorists entered your country and murdered your family?

I know how the world responded when 9/11 happened, and I know how the world rallied behind the people of Manchester and Paris and Boston etc etc etc when they were hit by terrorist attacks

In each and every one of those incidents, the response resulted in some regrettable civilian deaths and injuries

Don't forget that these attacks on the 7th October 2023 were NOT negotiation tactic, they were not an attempt to make the people of gazas life better. They were simply an attack on their enemy
 
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dawaxman said:
You've taken my statement somewhat out of context but I understand that every word I write needs to be able to stand alone

The context of my statement was - when it comes to the current conflict Israel is fighting Hamas NOT Palestine

That was what I meant when I said Palestine at the moment = hamas

The Palestinian people are being used as pawns, human shields and much worse by their own leaders
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To be fair I did post the entire context of the paragraph you wrote that sentence in. It was it's own paragraph.

To add more context you're currently defending what a UN special rapporteur said constitutes a crime against humanity as "better than the alternatives". I don't know. Maybe consider more alternatives before going for the crime against humanity one.

For a bit more context you describe that only a very small percentage aren't huge supporters of hamas. When 37% (not a very small percentage) of Palestinians are 0-14 years old. So even if all adults supported Hamas your claim wouldn't hold.

And you're consistently putting the blame for the suffering of innocent Palestinians almost exclusively at the hands of Hamas.

That one sentence does look slightly better in context than entirely removed from context I agree. Slightly. Congratulations, you're not directly spreading explicit hate speech.
 
AuroRaman said:
I agree actions speak louder than words.

The Israeli government bombed fleeing, innocent Gazans they ordered to evacuate from the north to the south, via ‘safe routes’. They entrapped them, mainly women and children. Human Rights Watch and reporters on the ground have reported that white phosphorous is being used in civilian areas. Illegal chemical weapons. Journalists who are reporting on this are being killed. Prominent figures on the ground in Gaza are having their content and/or accounts deleted for sharing the truth of the situation right now. No basic provisions for hospitals and infrastructure to run. But of course it’s deserved because the ‘majority’ of Gazans are supporters of Hamas. Even though 50% of the population are not of voting age and the last elections were held in 2006.

This is genocide and ethnic cleansing by every metric occurring right now. And yet we are attempting to silence and judge posters on here who are simply being human for seeing evil actions regardless of borders, ethnicity or religion. The world is broken when we only value the life and mourn the death of babies on one side.
Click to expand...

I really do hope you're wrong, the sources you use are wrong or you're just drawing the wrong conclusions.
 
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