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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

dawaxman said:
No I did not agree with the creation of Israel

Why don't you agree with it? Out of interest

They could start by not forcing people out of their homes and attacking families

400% agree
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Because it is asking for trouble going to an area of the world where the have been issues for centuries and creating another country and marginalising indigenous people.

Heard it once said if you wanted to create a home for Jewish people in 1948 then the Midwest in America would have been far more fitting and caused less problems.

Someone mentioned the splitting up of India further up, Israel and India are two awful legacies for the UK to leave the world.

In no way would I be anti Jewish, I have always been proud of our Jewish links and sung yid army as a defence against the racist clubs. But as the years have gone on I have become increasingly disgusted by the actions of Israel.

The fact that some younger generation Jewish people in that video wanted the Palestinians carpet bombed showed no respect for their own Jewish heritage. But then I guess the are macarons in every country.

If I get stem cell treatment again I have a choice between China and Israel. The world nearly ended when I went to China so I would be reluctant to tempt fate and go to Israel. But my only real issue is with how they displace people which I am pleased to see you agree with.
 
LutonSpurs said:
an example - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/world/middleeast/israel-arabs-vote.html
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I tried to read it. Is it essentially saying there is a reluctance to team up with Arab parties in Isreal? I agree that is stupid and unfair. Not sure it is the same as saying Israeli Arabs don't have the same rights though.
Danishfurniturelover said:
Nope I think the people who live on the land should control it, kind of a guiding principle of my own personal politics that though.
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So at the moment that would be Israelis and Palestinians. So you'd favour a 2 state solution? Or you'd take a point in time when the people living on the land should own it? Obviously, it has been in many different hands with many many different peoples living there: European crusaders, Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims, Canaanites who I think became Palestinians, Assyrians, Babylonians. I doubt many of these peoples were particularly polite to the previous population during their succession.

Edit: not sure about this, will have to read up, but I think if you look at the bones of ancient peoples buried around what is now Israel, then genetically, Palestinians and Jews are the closest modern relatives. Half of Palestinian and Jewish genes are Canaanite.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...m-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews
 
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SpurMeUp said:
I tried to read it. Is it essentially saying there is a reluctance to team up with Arab parties in Isreal? I agree that is stupid and unfair. Not sure it is the same as saying Israeli Arabs don't have the same rights though.


So at the moment that would be Israelis and Palestinians. So you'd favour a 2 state solution? Or you'd take a point in time when the people living on the land should own it? Obviously, it has been in many different hands with many many different peoples living there: European crusaders, Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims, Canaanites who I think became Palestinians, Assyrians, Babylonians. I doubt many of these peoples were particularly polite to the previous population during their succession.

Edit: not sure about this, will have to read up, but I think if you look at the bones of ancient peoples buried around what is now Israel, then genetically, Palestinians and Jews are the closest modern relatives. Half of Palestinian and Jewish genes are Canaanite.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...m-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews
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https://www.amnesty.org/en/countrie...-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
 
LutonSpurs said:
an example - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/world/middleeast/israel-arabs-vote.html
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I was reading this too earlier (trying to educate myself). Israel’s foreign ministry has unsurprisingly replied on this saying it is wrong.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...horities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

I know enough to know I don't know enough to make sweeping comments and generalisations about this topic, but an increasing amount of the commentary is focused the way of this article now.
 
Rorschach said:
I was reading this too earlier (trying to educate myself). Israel’s foreign ministry has unsurprisingly replied on this saying it is wrong.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...horities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

I know enough to know I don't know enough to make sweeping comments and generalisations about this topic, but an increasing amount of the commentary is focused the way of this article now.
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The foreign ministry habitually deny clear truths backed by evidence. Especially when it relates to crimes they commit.
 
LutonSpurs said:
The foreign ministry habitually deny clear truths backed by evidence. Especially when it relates to crimes they commit.
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The timing of this recent escalation is not random either it would appear. I posted an article on it earlier in this thread, but I see more than one commentator now echoing this point, that the timing may have been to sabotage efforts to form a government of national unity. I wouldn't put it past Bibi to pull such a despicable act.
 
Rorschach said:
I was reading this too earlier (trying to educate myself). Israel’s foreign ministry has unsurprisingly replied on this saying it is wrong.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...horities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

I know enough to know I don't know enough to make sweeping comments and generalisations about this topic, but an increasing amount of the commentary is focused the way of this article now.
Click to expand...

I can't claim to know much about modern-day Isreal, I totally believe Palastians get a raw deal. But comparing Isreal to South African apartheid seems wide of the mark.
LutonSpurs said:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countrie...-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
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I think this Amnesty link you posted is worth reading because it is factual and non-emotional. It lists the wrongs of both sides and in the occupied territories clearly, Israel is dominant and unjust.

In response to social media natty videos showing all Israelis as bloodthirsty nuts, here is a different representation


I looked up the Amnesty report on Syria, it makes the occupied territories one look tame, not that people who get so vexed about Israel give more than a passing interest in non-Israeli injustice https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/syria/report-syria/
 
SpurMeUp said:
I can't claim to know much about modern-day Isreal, I totally believe Palastians get a raw deal. But comparing Isreal to South African apartheid seems wide of the mark.
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Is it? Maybe it depends on your definition of the term but it seems close to the bullseye to me.

As others have said to frame this as 'two good four legs bad' is too simplistic. The complexities of the situation are something most on here do not fully grasp, myself most certainly included. But what is undeniable is the asymmetry of power on show in this conflict. And the notion of overkill from the Israeli side disgusts me, and is that what is driving the international backlash. Not to mention it is just fuel for Hamas.
 
Rorschach said:
Is it? Maybe it depends on your definition of the term but it seems close to the bullseye to me.

As others have said to frame this as 'two good four legs bad' is too simplistic. The complexities of the situation are something most on here do not fully grasp, myself most certainly included. But what is undeniable is the asymmetry of power on show in this conflict. And the notion of overkill from the Israeli side disgusts me, and is that what is driving the international backlash. Not to mention it is just fuel for Hamas.
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Is Isreal different from apartheid South Africa? :rolleyes: Black people couldn't vote in South Africa. They had no representation in government. This is an illustration of how people twist and gas off Isreal in their social media sandboxes. Read the Amnesty link above and you can see exactly what the wrongs committed are. Then have a look at Syria's Amnesty report. Isreal's neighbour, where 6 million people have been displaced. Six million - more than the whole Palestinian population. 20,000 children murdered. Half million killed. Whole cities and communities levelled and wiped out. Refugees who have no place to go and no prospects. But because there isn't an evil Isreal to bounce the narrative off, no one gives. Why is that?
 
dawaxman said:
Reposting this as I'd love for someone to answer these questions:

Do you agree with the creation of Israel in 1948?

To be honest I think that Israel should have been created in part of Germany for obvious reasons. But as it was created, I absolutely support its existence and hope for its prosperous and peaceful existence.

Do you understand why it was formed?

I do. Do you fully know why that place was chosen, and what deal was done?

Do you know which countries voted against it and what some of them did when it eventually came into being?

Yes.

How do you suggest Israel should handle the situation instead of what they're currently doing?

By creating a two state solution. Having a functional Palestinian state (please do not insult my intelligence or knowledge of the region by mentioning Gaza as this). This should be along the 1967 borders give them the west bank east Jerusalem.

Then make great trade relations between Israel and the Palestinian state. This would destroy the support for Hamas, and mean that Israeli can live in peace. And if that doesn't happen and Israel is attacked by the Palestinian state. Then there would be very little sympathy for them at all.
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Answers in bold.

Additional questions that you put up to others answering the questions you posed.

IRON DROME.

Completely understand the need for it. In fact I wish it was more effective. Genuinely.

Should Turks still control the region?

Obviously not now. But I suggest you do some research. When there was extreme persecution of Jews all over Europe and Russia the Ottoman empire welcomed Jewish people in. The most famous example is from Spain but there have been many through history.

The Turks are not the bad guys that media makes out.

Now that I have answered your questions honestly could please answer mine?

Do you think that Bibi's corruption probe has been aided by the distraction of what is going on now?

Do you think the displacement of Palestinians from their homes in East JERUSALEM is right? How can that be justified?

What do you think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims?

Are you right wing?

Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not?

What do you think of Bibi?

How would you resolve the conflict?

FYI and this is a massive generalisation (so forgive me) but all things being equal I would back Jewish people over Arabs, I genuinely would. I have more positive experience with Jewish people. And the Turk in me has not forgiven the Arabs for how they turned on the Ottomans.

And if the situation was reversed I would 100% be backing the Jewish state. In fact some of the people I speak to think I am actually pro Israel.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Is Isreal different from apartheid South Africa? :rolleyes: Black people couldn't vote in South Africa. They had no representation in government. This is an illustration of how people twist and gas off Isreal in their social media sandboxes. Read the Amnesty link above and you can see exactly what the wrongs committed are. Then have a look at Syria's Amnesty report. Isreal's neighbour, where 6 million people have been displaced. Six million - more than the whole Palestinian population. 20,000 children murdered. Half million killed. Whole cities and communities levelled and wiped out. Refugees who have no place to go and no prospects. But because there isn't an evil Isreal to bounce the narrative off, no one gives. Why is that?
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Why do you think that is?
 
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