Black Lives Matter

[wiziwig]

@SpurMeUp ...What you said about the grumpy old compared to the enlightened young people..

A theory about the young @ University and where we now find ourselves ...

Keith Woods the narrator has a strong Irish twang and sometimes a little difficult to follow, he speaks in a questioning manner as if his not 100% certain of himself, although he is...

If you get to watch it I'd like to hear what you think, even if you think it's a load of BS..

 

[spurspinter1]

Football commentators must address racial 'bias' says PFA

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53226508

Does anyone else think the key takeways from this article are a load of gonad*s?

Theres a clear over-representation of home grown black players in the PL (compared to white players) when you look at the UK demographics. This is because black players are on average better than white players. you dont need to be einstein to figure out why this is. if you look at at the game as being a technical, mental, and physical sport - its clear where the avg. black player has a natural advantage (on average). theres no need to hide from this, or be embarrassed by it.

this means that the avg. black player can play at a level higher than his mental or technical skills would typically dicate. also, it means that the avg. white player requires slightly more technical or mental ability to compete with black players. again, why are people so afraid to admit this?!?

because of these differences, its natural that theres a slight bias towards praising a black player for his physical attributes, and a white player for his mental attributes. this isnt to say, a player like bale cant be praised for his physical attributes, and a player like seedorf can also be praised for his intelligence. however, it does mean that questioning walcotts footballing brain is more than justifiable, and questioning if dawson is mobile enough for the pl is ok too (just like it would be for huddlestone).

another article showing that the bbc has lost the plot (along with half the world it seems)!

I think it's just best to take each person as they come and not get too caught up in mass labelling of certain attributes, whether positive or negative as it's a dangerous road imo. I get that there are pitfalls to the whole "not seeing race" thing as that can be a wilful ignorance towards deep rooted problems that need addressing; so the intention isn't to be blind to injustices out there but the problem is when everything appears to be about race... Personally I don't find anything you've said offensive or necessarily incorrect but more a bit puzzled at the thought that has gone in to it. Don't mean that as an accusation of any sort.

The study does seem pretty mad though, grouping players on a skin tone chart from 1 - 20 based on FM databases?! Maybe this is an ignorant comment but I just can't help but feel there's more pressing matters than calling out commentators for giving players praise based on what they see. Would be interesting to see what action the PFA would recommend, maybe giving commentators a big list of things they're not allowed to say before each game? "So you're on Wolves duty today, please don't mention that Adama Traore is an absolute fudging tank, instead state that he seems like he'd be an excellent chess player, got it?".

@wiziwig Don't know if it will be worth wading in to this one but the white lives matter guy...I do think him losing his job over it was a bit severe and I don't understand on what grounds that happened and get that you might be a bit concerned over the free speech thing buuut.....Him and his missus definitely appeared to have plenty of previous with malicious posts of a racist nature. Everyone has a right to an opinion but if that opinion is that flying a white lives banner as a rebuttal to everything that's happened the guy has some serious issues to work out.

 

[thfcsteff]

Answers in bold below.

May I ask if you think racism is specific to white people only?

I think racism exists in all areas of society.

For me to see Van Jones a CNN contributor pointing to his head and say that there is a "racist virus in white peoples heads and we need to cut it out" is a dangerous talk and incitement to violence, well wouldn't it be if a white man said something similar about black people? This man has made millions out of playing the race card and stoking up racial tensions is his profitable business. I believe he has numerous books out there that have earned him millions of $....

I don't see it as "dangerous talk" or "incitement to violence". I see it as a black man expressing a strong opinion born out of anger.

You're right there's a big discussion to be had on this power grab but I think I'm going to bow out of it ... I think we have shifted to a place where wrong think is jumped on in a serious way..A Stalinist era, where he who is seen, to be the first to not be clapping, that is if you're not showing loyalty to the cause never mind being a dissenting voice, you will suffer in a big way..

I think that is either paranoia or a feeling of distress that your opinion appears to be in the minority... or listening to people like Keith?!

Take that Jake Kepple guy, the man who flew the White Lives Matter banner. The police have stated that no laws were broken by him… Yet he’s been sacked from his job by his employers and now so too has his wife, for something her husband did! They have a mortgage so their friends tried to set up a crowdfund for them both, but they were refused by all the companies approached. This white working class man, whatever you think of him, knuckle dragging macaron did you say? Has he a right to his opinion so long as his not inciting violence a White Lives Matter opinion at that... Yet people who have recently been arrested for causing an affray and vandalism on these protest marches, have since been released without charge!

I think it is safe to say that Jake Kepple is absolutely a knuckle dragging macaron. You insult the average white working class man by putting them together. His action, in context of the time he chose to spring it, was an absolute provocation. I think it is hypocritical of those who no longer employ him to have chosen this moment to do so when there is clear evidence he and his partner espoused racist filth pretty regularly; why now? We know the answer, so yes, on that basis it is not great.

We have a situation, where the MSM have been bombarding the population with thousands of Black Lives Matter imagery and voices, on behalf of the movement are given a wall to wall platform, and go unchallenged..One white Englishman, in his own country living in one of the country's poorest areas expresses his right to free speech with one banner, that harms nobody but some people's feelings and he’s vilified and damned for it.

Yes, because for too many years, black lives seemingly did NOT matter that much. I won't bother reposting the many, many statistics which support black discontent, you have your view. As for this "expresses his right to free speech with one banner", well, if Mr.Kepple was a man with even. modicum of intellects, he'd have found another way to impart his personal opinions. If you don't find the timing and substance of his action equal to incitement and provocation, then I cannot say any more. Had he shown contrition and a willingness to accept his own actions, then I'd have time for him. People make mistakes in judgement. He hasn't.


I don't think it's parity.

One banner from a knuckle-dragging macaron brings you this conclusion? What a shame.

Again, I thank you for your open story with regards to your Dad and heritage, I sadly conclude that we disagree on many, many things. And quite fundamentally at that.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think their differences were largely religious....The Serbians historically allied themselves to Russian Orthodoxy, where as the Croats are Catholics allied to Rome saw themselves more Germanic..Also during the Ottoman Empire the Serbs were largely mistreated compared to the Croats as it were they that were often were the front line against Muslim expansion in to Europe. And then there were Croat allegiance to Hitler during WWII where their fascist faction carried out atrocities against the Serbs who were more allied to the Soviets...
..

I don't believe people get nastier as they get older .. There's their disappointment of the reality of the society they now find themselves and yes fast demographic change is one reality that's not appreciated and they see the downsides ... ...

Also, most people are not well traveled and most people would like to stay and live their lives not to far from their offspring and grand children.. In many European countries this has not been the case, there's a family breakdown, less community, people don't stay together like they used to..EU free movement and all that...

Consumerism is not the answer and having young so called knowledgeable teenagers tell older people that they're racist and owe all that they have to slavery, whilst peering into their latest Chinese made Apple mobiles, just doesn't make older people happy.. University for far to many young people, has not improved young people and in fact it has made many youngsters of average I.Q. suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect...To many of them talk the same , think the same. They've learned to recite but have no critical thinking ...Well that's my old grumpy opinion...

There's the liberation for women, how has that worked out in terms of happiness.. I see a lot of childless cat ladies in the future.. I used to live in Walthamstow and I remember many of these Liberal lefty minded women and by the time they'd hit 35 and a couple of abortions it was to late for them to have a family ...I'd tell any young lad on here if they want to listen ..Stay way from these women, find yourself a traditional living woman and have a few children, it's the best thing...

I will focus on the bold-face bit as it contains something I agree with!!!!
There is certainly an entitlement and blindness that comes from some millennials. And I agree with the lower standard of education leading to lots of people thinking they're smart but lacking in both critical thinking and the bravery to hold their own view based on decent education. I'd put that down to universities having become businesses in the money game rather than houses of education and betterment. Whenever business is involved, inevitably the move is towards as m much as you can get for as little. With education that doesn't work IMO.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I will focus on the bold-face bit as it contains something I agree with!!!!
There is certainly an entitlement and blindness that comes from some millennials. And I agree with the lower standard of education leading to lots of people thinking they're smart but lacking in both critical thinking and the bravery to hold their own view based on decent education. I'd put that down to universities having become businesses in the money game rather than houses of education and betterment. Whenever business is involved, inevitably the move is towards as m much as you can get for as little. With education that doesn't work IMO.

Seems to me a lot of universities in this country are the breeding ground for far left thinking. The refusal to even engage or listen to differing political views and the whole safe space nonsense.

Dont think that has anything to do with big business more to do with people involved in education often having very liberal values.

My son is starting to think about university, wants to do graphic design. Still 2 years away but he is being advised by his school. Thankfully he speaks posh nothing like his father so he should do well in an interview.

 

[glasgowspur]

Seeing @glasgowspur just now reminded me of this video...

Whats going on with all these Scottish Nationalists and their Parliament on the whole...

William Wallace got hung drawn and quartered for these self loathing clams... And what about those two Asian SNP mp's ...Not sure I like their tone when they say huwhite!

To use your own words from a later post..
.A Stalinist era, where he who is seen, to be the first to not be clapping, that is if you're not showing loyalty to the cause never mind being a dissenting voice, you will suffer in a big way..

This is Scotland, don't support indy and you better beware.
The SNP are building a voter base on the most despicable terms and if it ever happens it will end in tears and probably bloodshed.
Thankfully the silent majority are still against it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Football commentators must address racial 'bias' says PFA

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53226508

Does anyone else think the key takeways from this article are a load of gonad*s?

Theres a clear over-representation of home grown black players in the PL (compared to white players) when you look at the UK demographics. This is because black players are on average better than white players. you dont need to be einstein to figure out why this is. if you look at at the game as being a technical, mental, and physical sport - its clear where the avg. black player has a natural advantage (on average). theres no need to hide from this, or be embarrassed by it.

this means that the avg. black player can play at a level higher than his mental or technical skills would typically dicate. also, it means that the avg. white player requires slightly more technical or mental ability to compete with black players. again, why are people so afraid to admit this?!?

because of these differences, its natural that theres a slight bias towards praising a black player for his physical attributes, and a white player for his mental attributes. this isnt to say, a player like bale cant be praised for his physical attributes, and a player like seedorf can also be praised for his intelligence. however, it does mean that questioning walcotts footballing brain is more than justifiable, and questioning if dawson is mobile enough for the pl is ok too (just like it would be for huddlestone).

another article showing that the bbc has lost the plot (along with half the world it seems)!

1. The BBC are reporting something from the PFA. That is what news media do.

2. You have fallen for a stereotype. True research shows that there isn’t a difference between white and black peoples intelligence. And physical differences are minor.

Those of west African heritage have bodies which are more likely to be disposed to sprinting and those with east African heritage more disposed to long distance running.

But these physical differences are tiny and don’t account for the numbers of block people in sport. Have a look at basketball. Something like 70% of NBA players are black. Huge amount of research has looked into why. It’s not that black players are better than white ones, it is cultural. If it was due to genuine physical/genetic difference you wouldn’t have white players at all.

So your point that black players have greater physical attributes and white players greater intelligence is a lot of gonad*s.

By your rationale Gareth Bale, a physical specimen, should be black. Walob


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[glasgowspur]

1. The BBC are reporting something from the PFA. That is what news media do.

2. You have fallen for a stereotype. True research shows that there isn’t a difference between white and black peoples intelligence. And physical differences are minor.

Those of west African heritage have bodies which are more likely to be disposed to sprinting and those with east African heritage more disposed to long distance running.

But these physical differences are tiny and don’t account for the numbers of block people in sport. Have a look at basketball. Something like 70% of NBA players are black. Huge amount of research has looked into why. It’s not that black players are better than white ones, it is cultural. If it was due to genuine physical/genetic difference you wouldn’t have white players at all.

So your point that black players have greater physical attributes and white players greater intelligence is a lot of gonad*s.

By your rationale Gareth Bale, a physical specimen, should be black. Walob


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Any research using a metric from a computer game must dubious, anyone taking this seriously is asking for trouble.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Wilheldiva could you possibly tell us why there are no (or few?) Indians playing football? Is it a physical or neurological trait that holds them back?

Yet in Cricket there are many many exceptional Indian batsmen. Do those of Indian origin have special gene which allows them to arch over and see the flight of a ball? Or is it cultural? Same applies to football.

While at 100 meters there is a difference between west Africans and the rest, the tiny fraction of a second difference that west African origin peoples have only shows how close all humans are.

By your logic, white people should be best at motorsport. Physical prowess is not needed. Any reasonably fit individual can train to strengthen their neck muscles and fitness to drive at elite level. Hell, physically, even you could do it with a bit of training. So using your racist metric white people with 'better brains' should be best at driving fast. Yet we currently have a dominant world champion who is black. How so?

 

[glasgowspur]

@Wilheldiva could you possibly tell us why there are no (or few?) Indians playing football? Is it a physical or neurological trait that holds them back?

Yet in Cricket there are many many exceptional Indian batsmen. Do those of Indian origin have special gene which allows them to arch over and see the flight of a ball? Or is it cultural? Same applies to football.

While at 100 meters there is a difference between west Africans and the rest, the tiny fraction of a second difference that west African origin peoples have only shows how close all humans are.

By your logic, white people should be best at motorsport. Physical prowess is not needed. Any reasonably fit individual can train to strengthen their neck muscles and fitness to drive at elite level. Hell, physically, even you could do it with a bit of training. So using your racist metric white people with 'better brains' should be best at driving fast. Yet we currently have a dominant world champion who is black. How so?

I think you may have tagged, or whatever its called, the wrong poster.

Anyway, regarding the 100m, it's all so quick now that that tiny edge is enough to make difference.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

2. You have fallen for a stereotype. True research shows that there isn’t a difference between white and black peoples intelligence.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Sorry for jumping in, but I don’t think he suggested there was?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Until we start accepting other people as human beings like ourselves we will never beat this cancer. I personally dislike most groups of over 4 or 5 irrespective of nationality, race, religion, politics, sporting alliance, food preference or any other category which makes me a bigot, racist or nutter.

 

[Wilheldiva]

1. The BBC are reporting something from the PFA. That is what news media do.

you make a fair point here - but i suspect the bbc wouldnt have published this article had it not aligned with their political leanings.

2. You have fallen for a stereotype. True research shows that there isn’t a difference between white and black peoples intelligence. And physical differences are minor.

we're talking about "football intelligence" only and the factors involved in getting people from different races into a career in elite football.

however to respond your point, theres definitely studies arguing both ways. naturally my inclination would be to think that there is a difference in intelligence (however we quantify this), but i would have no idea which race is more or less intelligent. if you get an avg. intelligence score from one demographic (be it race, age, gender, geography), and compare it to another, one will definitely be higher than the other - this gap may be large or minimal - but a difference will exist. only on this basis would i argue that there is a difference between races.

Those of west African heritage have bodies which are more likely to be disposed to sprinting and those with east African heritage more disposed to long distance running.

But these physical differences are tiny and don’t account for the numbers of block people in sport. Have a look at basketball. Something like 70% of NBA players are black. Huge amount of research has looked into why. It’s not that black players are better than white ones, it is cultural. If it was due to genuine physical/genetic difference you wouldn’t have white players at all.

i agree that these types of differences do not necessarily have huge differences in your average population - however they lead to critical differences at the extreme ends of the spectrum. it means that at the elite level, top sprinters are pretty much all black, same with long distance runners etc. i havent explained it well tbf - but iirc Jordan Peterson articulates this pretty well on some of his videos.

this is not to say that i dont agree that culture plays a significant part in determining who becomes an athlete.

So your point that black players have greater physical attributes and white players greater intelligence is a lot of gonad*s.

my point is merely that to play at a professional level, a player needs an exceptional combination of mental and physical attributes. where a player may lack in one of these (compared to other elite athletes), they will have to make up for this shortfall in another area of their game.

on a slightly different note, i would actually prefer not to label the mental/tactical side of the game as intelligence. this is for a number of reasons, but basically if your game is based on intensity (pace. power etc), you are naturally going to have less composure when decision making to a player who is more lethargic (a la ozil, berba). This doesnt necessarily mean you are any less "intelligent", it means you are looking to exploit one part of your skillset whilst sacrificing another.

By your rationale Gareth Bale, a physical specimen, should be black. Walob
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

errm, no, when i have ever said this? as i've highlighted very clearly, we're talking about averages (at the elite level).

 

[Wilheldiva]

Any research using a metric from a computer game must dubious, anyone taking this seriously is asking for trouble.

tbf it sounds like they used the game to extract skin tones only - which is fair enough. its not too different to using the games database to extract players DOBs. Yes, things may be slightly off/inaccurate here or there, but as long as they have performed some sort of sample size analysis, it should be ok.

however, what they should have done is look at the skin tone of pl players and look at the correlation between skin tones and mental or physical attributes - and what they would have discovered is that the game is in fact racist

 

[Wilheldiva]

@Wilheldiva could you possibly tell us why there are no (or few?) Indians playing football? Is it a physical or neurological trait that holds them back?

i dont want to fully explain my thoughts on this 1) because im not sure they are correct, but 2) i dont want a backlash

but basically my opinion has to do with positive reinforcement at a young/developmental age. kids enjoy things they are good at, and will naturally gravitate to activities which give them positive reinforcement.

Yet in Cricket there are many many exceptional Indian batsmen. Do those of Indian origin have special gene which allows them to arch over and see the flight of a ball? Or is it cultural? Same applies to football.

for cricket, maybe its simply the case that they arent missing an attribute (whatever that may be) which is a pre-requisite for success.

what i would say is look at the sports where south asians excel in - cricket, badminton, table tennis etc, and then look at sports where they have little elite representation in (although recreational participation may be higher).

While at 100 meters there is a difference between west Africans and the rest, the tiny fraction of a second difference that west African origin peoples have only shows how close all humans are.

i agree 100%. but thats what professional football is - only those who have that fraction of an advantage will reach the elite stage. that advantage may be technical, physical or mental - and i simply think that the over representation of black players can be explained by the physical advantages they may have. and like i said, only a minimal fraction of the black population will be able to capitalise on this - but this is what elite sports are.

By your logic, white people should be best at motorsport. Physical prowess is not needed. Any reasonably fit individual can train to strengthen their neck muscles and fitness to drive at elite level. Hell, physically, even you could do it with a bit of training. So using your racist metric white people with 'better brains' should be best at driving fast. Yet we currently have a dominant world champion who is black. How so?

this was never my argument.

i was simply arguing why i think theres an over representation of black players in elite football.

 

[SpurMeUp]

this was never my argument.

i was simply arguing why i think theres an over representation of black players in elite football.

So that is your argument? That’s a statistical fact. Not sure if you’re back or white but it doesn’t take any intelligence to observe data.

Fact is while there are physical differences between races, it doesn’t impact performance greatly. Even with elite sprinting the differences are a fraction of 1 second. That is not enough to make a difference in football. If it were we’d have a lot more black people playing football.

The money on offer means many many more black peoples would be playing if there was such a strong genetic advantage. Just as with cricket the more important variables are cultural.

Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Wilheldiva]

So that is your argument? That’s a statistical fact. Not sure if you’re back or white but it doesn’t take any intelligence to observe data.

Fact is while there are physical differences between races, it doesn’t impact performance greatly. Even with elite sprinting the differences are a fraction of 1 second. That is not enough to make a difference in football. If it were we’d have a lot more black people playing football.
Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

youre wrong on this - look at any 2 random players in the pl. take lloris and modric for example - modric's height means that he simply will never be a goalkeeper. lets looks at 2 players of the same position. chorluka and walker - i personally dont think theres too much in it between these two other than walker's athleticism - and thats taken him to Emirates Marketing Project and the pl title, whilst chorluka probably has a bunch of titles comparable to a league cup. theres simply no way you can argue that physical differences doesnt impact performance greatly

a fraction of a second in football is everything. look at walcott - do you think he has lost a second of pace over a 100m since he was at arsenal? i doubt it, hes likely lost a "fraction" - thats taken him from starting at arsenal to the bench at everton. if he literally lost a second, he wouldnt be in the pl.

pretty much all footballers are extremely good runners, both over short and longer distances. its small fractions which split the players up

 

[SpurMeUp]

youre wrong on this - look at any 2 random players in the pl. take lloris and modric for example - modric's height means that he simply will never be a goalkeeper. lets looks at 2 players of the same position. chorluka and walker - i personally dont think theres too much in it between these two other than walker's athleticism - and thats taken him to Emirates Marketing Project and the pl title, whilst chorluka probably has a bunch of titles comparable to a league cup. theres simply no way you can argue that physical differences doesnt impact performance greatly

a fraction of a second in football is everything. look at walcott - do you think he has lost a second of pace over a 100m since he was at arsenal? i doubt it, hes likely lost a "fraction" - thats taken him from starting at arsenal to the bench at everton. if he literally lost a second, he wouldnt be in the pl.

pretty much all footballers are extremely good runners, both over short and longer distances. its small fractions which split the players up

If there was a significant physical advantage to being black, why are there not more black players? The remuneration on offer means more black players would be playing if they had a significant advantage.

We also know that footballers come from poorer backgrounds often, playing on the streets, and black people are on average poorer in the UK. Sport often offers a dream of success.

The biggest variables, as with cricket, are cultural.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think you may have tagged, or whatever its called, the wrong poster.

Anyway, regarding the 100m, it's all so quick now that that tiny edge is enough to make difference.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.

They are probably the same person.

Sorry for jumping in, but I don’t think he suggested there was?

"this means that the avg. black player can play at a level higher than his mental or technical skills would typically dicate. also, it means that the avg. white player requires slightly more technical or mental ability to compete with black players."

It is just our resident racist under a different name trying to start with something that is palatable, trying to open the discussion into the realm of racism. That is all.

Yes there are differences between races. But different races are more similar than they appear (or are often treated). Cultural variables are far far more important in determining why black people play sports, or why Indians play cricket etc. As with Yougslavia, Irland or Scotland with Protestants and Catholics, there are no real physiological genetic differences to these different groups. The differences are cultural and imagined.

 

[glasgowspur]

They are probably the same person.



"this means that the avg. black player can play at a level higher than his mental or technical skills would typically dicate. also, it means that the avg. white player requires slightly more technical or mental ability to compete with black players."

It is just our resident racist under a different name trying to start with something that is palatable, trying to open the discussion into the realm of racism. That is all.

Yes there are differences between races. But different races are more similar than they appear (or are often treated). Cultural variables are far far more important in determining why black people play sports, or why Indians play cricket etc. As with Yougslavia, Irland or Scotland with Protestants and Catholics, there are no real physiological genetic differences to these different groups. The differences are cultural and imagined.

What do you think of the old argument about black boxers being more proflic because it was a good route out of poverty?
Is that true today with sport in general?