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Politics, politics, politics

SpurMeUp said:
I agree apart from the last sentence. How could anyone welcome a future where the UK has so many challanges with so few potential oppotunies (at least oppotunities outlined to us). We lose everything from phone roaming, pollution control, new satalie programmes, free trade and export jobs, a seat at the top table helping to control global trade etc etc. and on the otherside we get an option to negotiate trade deals with our 50m consumers and start from scratch. It is bonkers to me why anyone who can reason thinks Brexit offers anything. It doesn't. It is a myth. The answers lie closer to home - sorting the failings in our own government and nation.
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Last point was what I think will happen not what i want to happen, sides are entrenched it will be impossible for the tories to offer another referendum and Labour are unlikely to be in a position to even if they wanted to.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Serious question here as I know everyone has serious alliances to political parties.

Can you seriously vote for Corbyn and if so do you 400% buy his manifesto and general behaviour?
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No. Which renders the subsequent questions non applicable but I'll answer them anyway - no and no.
 
This is such a great forum. Really - the best. I'm loving this thread - an actual conversation...informed, respectful, insightful, funny.

Interesting things happening at Labour Conference - suddenly, democracy seems to be in play. Momentum scare me, but only because Marxism (if they are Marxist, arguably) was the cause of maybe 200m deaths in the C20th. Absurd in so many ways to think we are anywhere near that, but the core ideology is no different. How did humanity ever get to that point? In little steps. I think it's easy to see where the Right crosses the proper red line of acceptability, but with the Left, it's much harder as it is by nature a so-called inclusive, equal ideology and Marxism provides a brilliant critique of capitalism - it's very attractive, in theory. In practice, it's been more murderous than fascism (though the ends of each ideology join up really, don't they - people being authoritarian cnuts).

So, I worry about Momentum, but you can see the need for a counterpoint given the Tories are just appalling and their loons need balancing.

But I suddently felt a little twinge of hope reading the Grauniad tonight. A teeny, weeny green shoot of...something.

I'll probably be tinkled-off again tomorrow though.
 
I’m more worried about Corbyn himself - he’s the Ditherer in Chief, almost incapable of making a decision. I can’t see how he’d survive as PM. The pace of it all would be beyond him. He’s also too idealistic and lacks the pragmatism necessary to lead a nation imo, which is a shame, as I’d love him to be a viable alternative.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Last point was what I think will happen not what i want to happen, sides are entrenched it will be impossible for the tories to offer another referendum and Labour are unlikely to be in a position to even if they wanted to.
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Maybe someone who understands the mechanism of Parliament will know:

Can an MP propose a bill to have a referendum, and then cross party MPs vote it through? Is this viable? So even if May and Corbyn are prevaricating it could be forced through?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Maybe someone who understands the mechanism of Parliament will know:

Can an MP propose a bill to have a referendum, and then cross party MPs vote it through? Is this viable? So even if May and Corbyn are prevaricating it could be forced through?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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In theory, yes. In reality, no.

There might be a lot of Conservatives who dislike May and her plans, but I can't think of more than one or two that would vote for that. I can also think of dozens of Labour MPs who would vote against it too.

There's very little appetite amongst MPs to be seen to reverse the will of the people for very good reason.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Maybe someone who understands the mechanism of Parliament will know:

Can an MP propose a bill to have a referendum, and then cross party MPs vote it through? Is this viable? So even if May and Corbyn are prevaricating it could be forced through?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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The only way to have a non-Government bill is a Private Member's Bill. So the scenario you describe would need a People's Vote adherent to get lucky in the ballot, and anyway those bills are very vulnerable to filibustering. Generally they only succeed if uncontroversial.

[Edit: In fact, there is just such a bill lurking, introduced by Gareth Thomas. It gets its second reading late in October, but it won't get anywhere]

Fortunately, we don't need a bill for a referendum. It could simply be raised - in either House - as an amendment to a tangentially-related bill. Brexiteers and Remainers on both sides have done quite a lot of that. It's not clear whether the "meaningful vote" will be amendable, but there's bound to be some legislation before March that could be used as a vehicle. The Speaker decides which amendments to select, making a judgement on which are most likely to pass, and luckily Bercow's on the side of the angels.

However, the maths are terrible for a bill that isn't supported by either May or Corbyn.

Personally, I think that if the alternative is no deal, and all opposition parties whipped in favour of a plebiscite, the Conservative rebels would greatly outnumber the Labour leavers. And, of course, a second vote is now Labour policy, if only in certain circumstances.

The difficult question is whether Corbyn and his cabal would whip in favour of a referendum with an option to remain, and if any referendum mechanism would get agreement from LDs, SNP, Labour and Soubryites.
 
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Corbyn wories me in that I believe he is more evil and some of his views are tainted with a slightly evil edge to them.

He is an activist who has a underlying respect for the IRA and other terrorist groups that he sees as freedom fighting.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Corbyn wories me in that I believe he is more evil and some of his views are tainted with a slightly evil edge to them.

He is an activist who has a underlying respect for the IRA and other terrorist groups that he sees as freedom fighting.
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It's McDonnell who really liked the IRA. Corbyn prefers more exotic revolutionaries.
 
scaramanga said:
To show how much Labour's PR team has improved. Within minutes of that event Comrade Corbyn was tweeting about anti-Semitism being bad.
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Its unreal. Of all the subjects during a period of uncertainty in the UK how better to address these issues and gain support from the UK that waiving flags in support for Palestine. The guy is a headcase
 
I don't for a moment believe that Corbyn knew this when quoting him and I apologise for the sauce, but;

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/73531...-branded-an-anti-semite-a-racist-and-a-bigot/

Doesn't he have people to check the brick he's going to say before he says it? If not, why not? He's in the middle of a(n undeserved) brick storm over his party's anti-semitic tendencies and he has a room full of spastics waving Palestinian flags, followed by a speech in which he quotes an anti-semite. The man's a fudging idiot.
 
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