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The Y word

Grays_1890 said:
There is a tweet earlier from a reporter for the Athletic with a link between the West Ham abuse and Spurs use of the word which ultimately suggested we ere somehow to blame. I am Jewish so have plenty of skin in the game and it's always been a case with Anti Semitism abuse of there always being a "but" or we should somehow feel guilty for the abuse we receive, I would also argue there is alot less done about it than other "isms"
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The article does cover the anti-Semitic abuse from other fans and how this is sometimes in response to our chants. It mainly quotes Jewish fans of other clubs during these sections. I don't think that it points the blame at us.
 
Grays_1890 said:
it's always been a case with Anti Semitism abuse of there always being a "but" or we should somehow feel guilty for the abuse we receive, I would also argue there is alot less done about it than other "isms"
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Yes, this.

Grays_1890 said:
Unlike the N word it has never been the Y word that in isolation was the offensive part. It's the prefix of "Dirty" or "fudging" that have made it offensive along with hissing or songs like "Spurs are on their way to Aushwhitz"

A fairer comparison would be the word black, calling someone black isn't racist, calling someone a black bastard is, same as calling a Jew a Yid C-+t, apologies for use of graphic language there but it needed in the contact of the subject.

?
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And your point above is why (outside of football stuff, which is always fairly crude) the word Yid alone is problematic, because antisemitism is for some reason acceptable in a lot of polite society (especially the political left) in a way that other racisms aren’t. Hence, it can be pretty vicious - and often is - even without derogatory prefixes.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Dunno. I’d ignore it, I suppose. But I’ve never been to an away game, except Fulham, which doesn’t count, and I’d take any steps possible to avoid aggro in real life.
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The point want about aggro it's about others commandeering a term for hate and this feeling that we should some how have to then drop it. I am a Yid, Yiddish a Jew if someone wants to call me a dirty fcuking Jew or Yid I'm comfortable to believe they are an anti semitic macaron and not be shamed into not using the word or feel proud of my heritage by somehow believing I'm the problem.
 
Grays_1890 said:
The point want about aggro it's about others commandeering a term for hate and this feeling that we should some how have to then drop it. I am a Yid, Yiddish a Jew if someone wants to call me a dirty fcuking Jew or Yid I'm comfortable to believe they are an anti semitic macaron and not be shamed into not using the word or feel proud of my heritage by somehow believing I'm the problem.
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I am quite happy with a compromise where you are given a special dispensation to sing what you like, and all other supporters have to content themselves with GB’s suggestion of “rooster Army”.
 
Focusing more on the article than the debate around whether our use of the word is racist or not for me any initiative to end the use of the Y word is in my view doomed to fail while David Baddiel is still invoved whether in interviews or a more official capacity.
I happen to agree with David Baddiel in everything he says around the subject but that is not the point, a large amount of the Tottenham support see many of his comments as victim blaming and it cut to the bone coming from a Chelsea fan and I can understand why there is a huge sense of hypocrisy around it even though Baddiel himself has never been hypocritical as far as I know.
Just practically I don't see how you can stop fans using a word when the most common song is directly aimed at one of the driving forces behind stopping that kind of song ( tried to stop us, look what it did song ) who is also a fan of the the club who are most at fault for directing antisemetic chants at Spurs fans.
Of course David Baddiel has more than a right to his opinions and to express them but it hasn't done what was intended and has actually made things even more entrenched in the eyes of many Spurs fans.
I think it would have been very different coming from anyone other than a supporter of Chelsea.
Edit: or West Ham
 
The Affletic said:
the players will take a knee against all forms of racism and discrimination. As soon as they are finished, a hearty chorus of “Y*ddos” ... will be sung ... effectively saying to the Jewish community that all forms of racism and discrimination will not be tolerated, apart from antisemitism.
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Incorrect. It is a rallying cry that we stand together, united. Maybe if we played in red we should sing Red Army? Or is that too Communist? How about White Army, is that better?

The Affletic said:
“The key thing is that it’s very much not just about Spurs fans, and the way I come across the Y-word and have done for many years is via Chelsea fans who chant the word in a different way,” says Baddiel. “And in an extremely aggressive way with associated antisemitic chants about everything from foreskins to Auschwitz. It’s a really obvious dynamic because football fans sing call-and-response — one crowd starts with something, another answers back.

“People don’t understand that — while what mostly happens is Chelsea fans chant the Y-word at Spurs fans, players, former players and so on — you also have a situation like when we played (Israeli team) Maccabi Tel Aviv and they sing it at them. It’s very blurred.
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A-ha, there's the nub Mr Baddiel. You twist and turn through thousands of words and finally accept that it is Chelsea fans to blame, from the underground station, past the pubs to the ground, it is Chelsea fans spitting and cursing the Jews and threatening violence and making hissing gas-chamber noises, so THEY are the culprit here. They also like to sing "I'd rather be a Paki than a Jew" which is again, THEIR problem not Tottenham's. When Chelsea play Maccabi Tel Aviv there is a huge issue which... has nothing to do with Spurs. It is the Chelsea knuckle-draggers to blame. I know some. They are absolute scum and if Spurs choose not to sing something, that won't change a thing. They are incurably racist idiot scumbags.

The Affletic said:
Chelsea, meanwhile, launched their Say No to Antisemitism campaign in 2018 aimed at providing supporters, staff, players and fans with more information and context on the topic.
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Bravo, that is working a treat. Hats off to your owner, eh?

FolkestoneSpur said:
I happen to agree with David Baddiel in everything he says around the subject ...
...even though Baddiel himself has never been hypocritical as far as I know.
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1. Did you read the article in full, yet not sense the huuuuge Chelsea bias dripping from Baddiel's point of view?
2. Did you see GB's post?
 
What I don’t understand is why people think it’s antisemitic to chat Yid as in Goon or Hammer.

It’s origin was in fighting antisemitism ffs. Not that anyone even knew that until Biedal came along to try and take the emphasis off the abhorrent hissing from his own fans - actual racism.

Moreover Yid which comes from Yiddish is a language. It’s not a race as such. I do understand why older non-football supporting Jews who don’t understand the history could be offended as 50+ years ago it was a slur. But guys get with it, no one uses this term in everyday language anymore outside of football and a tiny Hasidic community who keep the Yiddish language alive. Only Baddiel has recharged the term with racial meaning.

As a Jewish supporter I have some affection for our fans anti racism history - before people even talked of fighting racism. That Spurs supporters - our forefathers - organically stood in unison against attacks on Jews is unique and a feather in our cap as far as I am concerned.
 
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Bullet said:
. Did you read the article in full, yet not sense the huuuuge Chelsea bias dripping from Baddiel's point of view?
2. Did you see GB's post?
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Yes I read the article in full and I'm in agreement with Baddiel around his views on antisemetism.
My whole post in a roundabout way was basically saying Baddiel should step back from the debate because of his Chelsea bias, percieved or otherwise.
Yes I've seen GB's post, Baddiel explained himself on that in The Jewish Chronicle.
 
It's amazing that some people with nothing genuine to do, try to invent controversy around this.
The word is generally used in celebration, of a goal or a special player. Given the unrest in the world, I can understand why the club doesn't want to be seen as a "Jewish club", but who apart from football fans (and some few passers by) gets to hear the chant?
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
The whole post is spectacularly point-missing,.
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I find that a strange statement TBH, to some, as said it's a hugely emotive subject and again as said all views should be at least respected l, the only way it misses the point I that you don't agree with some views which is cool it's why its discussed, but it's slightly condescending to say the whole post I missing the point. I do however agree with the point you make a out the post you are replying to
 
afsoc4life said:
At the risk of causing a fight on this board.

A simple similarity for me is the n-word. A word that was used to negatively refer to black people. As a Negro, this is going to be like stopping black people referring to each other with the n-word. It is a term that is used especially by folks to greet each other. It has honestly been a long while I used the term possibly because I am no longer in my teens, 20s or 30s. However I always remember the conflicts sometimes humourous where if a non Negro used the n word, we would be tinkled. Meanwhile we using it amongst ourselves is a form of fond greeting. Also similar to the way some people use insults to greet themselves fondly.

The use of the Yid word to me as a Spurs fan is similar - taking a word used with malice by others and turning it into the opposite.

I look forward to what decision will be made. I am not Jewish so I have minimal say in the matter.
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I think its great that a word that is used to denigrate people can be used by those same people as a friendly greeting amongst themselves.
If that word and the Y word are actually saying that you are different from the knuckle dragging neanderthals that bandied the terms around then that is something to be happy about.
Who the fudge would want to be one of them.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Wow.

The whole post is spectacularly point-missing, but this bit, wow.
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Apologies if my post seems odd. I was thinking that no club would want to be a magnet for the attention of Jihadist terrorists. As for missing the point, isn't it relevant to say that this chant is really pretty obscure? Most people have not a clue that it is sung, so comparisons with the N word are wide of the mark.
 
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