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***OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Liverpool Sunday 31st August 1330 KO***

Today was a learning experience for all parties, especially Poch.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but this game crying for a midfield three of Dembele, Capoue and Paulinho behind Eriksen and Lamela...

If Liverpool lined out 4231 like they did against Southampton or the 433 against City, we wouldn't have been so out numbered in the middle. We would have had a covering centre half.
In saying that Poch could have changed formation during the game at some point but didnt.
 
And you're intelligent enough to know that there's more than one solution to a problem. And perceptive enough to realize that Pochettino might not want us to overpay for players.

Back to Stambouli though, don't you think it's Baldini and Poch that have brought him up as an option?

There is certainly more than one potential solution to this problem. But not all solutions are equally efficacious, and expecting Stambouli to fill whatever role Poch had planned for Schneiderlin will inevitably lead to a delay as Stambouli goes through the same adjustment process our foreign imports last year did, with the end result being that we may not have purchased a player quite as good as Schneiderlin, who for his excessive price is almost guaranteed to be better than all our current batch of DMs and will both fit into the system immediately and be an on-field lieutenant for Poch in a way that Stambouli will not immediately be despite his qualities. But that delay and possible lowered utility of Stambouli will not prevent the fans and Levy himself (he of the 'play Adebayor Andre, because I'm the manager and I know better than you' fame) growing uppity at around the same rate that they normally would. So what's the upside to Stambouli versus Schneiderlin, at least in Poch's eyes?

As for Poch not wanting us to overpay, it could be that he sees the price as not excessive at all. After all, we're bound to make some money on outgoings tomorrow, and by all accounts have a large surplus from our previous dealings. So a bid of that size certainly doesn't seem excessive given the circumstances. And again, I invite you to consider it for a moment through Poch's eyes: who would be more beneficial to have, career-at-Spurs-wise, Schneiderlin or Stambouli?


I'm not sure that Gomes is the most reliable of sources. We know that AVB would have liked Hulk and Moutinho but were they realistic targets last summer and what wages would they have wanted? If AVB could have only have brought success to WHL with £100k+ players then it was always going to end it tears.

AVB fell out with everyone from Freund, the medical team, Levy, Baldini, the press and his players. Not all of this was because he did not get his first choice targets but all of it was a contributing factor in him leaving.

Certainly more reliable than he was in goal (Ba-dum-tish!). What I mean is, he's as credible as any other ITK: Indeed, a lot more credible given his status as a former player. As for Hulk and Moutinho being realistic targets, we had 100 million to spend in the summer that he wanted Hulk, and had all the Modric money to spend in the season he wanted Moutinho. Wage-wise is a more murky affair, but again, given the reports suggesting that we were set to make Bale a ginormous contract offer before Madrid came calling, I'd suggest that the wage bill wasn't too over-stretched.
 
Certainly more reliable than he was in goal (Ba-dum-tish!). What I mean is, he's as credible as any other ITK: Indeed, a lot more credible given his status as a former player. As for Hulk and Moutinho being realistic targets, we had 100 million to spend in the summer that he wanted Hulk, and had all the Modric money to spend in the season he wanted Moutinho. Wage-wise is a more murky affair, but again, given the reports suggesting that we were set to make Bale a ginormous contract offer before Madrid came calling, I'd suggest that the wage bill wasn't too over-stretched.

Dubai, you're probably one of my favorite posters on here but surely you can not believe that? Levy would never compromise the wage cap we have on our players on anyone. And for arguments sake suppose he was, there is a big difference between offering a $#it load of cash to someone like Bale, who was at the time a Spurs player and had proven his worth in the Premier League and to the club, and uncertain types like Hulk and Moutinhio who had never set foot in one of the big 5 leagues.


I would also like to point out that I am by no means a huge AVB fan. I actually preferred Sherwood *ducks for cover* and my appreciation of AVB extends to 'he is a nice guy' and 'It would have been nice if things turned out differently'.
 
There is certainly more than one potential solution to this problem. But not all solutions are equally efficacious, and expecting Stambouli to fill whatever role Poch had planned for Schneiderlin will inevitably lead to a delay as Stambouli goes through the same adjustment process our foreign imports last year did, with the end result being that we may not have purchased a player quite as good as Schneiderlin, who for his excessive price is almost guaranteed to be better than all our current batch of DMs and will both fit into the system immediately and be an on-field lieutenant for Poch in a way that Stambouli will not immediately be despite his qualities. But that delay and possible lowered utility of Stambouli will not prevent the fans and Levy himself (he of the 'play Adebayor Andre, because I'm the manager and I know better than you' fame) growing uppity at around the same rate that they normally would. So what's the upside to Stambouli versus Schneiderlin, at least in Poch's eyes?

As for Poch not wanting us to overpay, it could be that he sees the price as not excessive at all. After all, we're bound to make some money on outgoings tomorrow, and by all accounts have a large surplus from our previous dealings. So a bid of that size certainly doesn't seem excessive given the circumstances. And again, I invite you to consider it for a moment through Poch's eyes: who would be more beneficial to have, career-at-Spurs-wise, Schneiderlin or Stambouli?

I honestly don't know enough about Stambouli to comment on him specifically. I don't even know if he's considered an option to Schneiderlin. Personally I think considering Bentaleb as a first choice midfielder is a potential different solution to some of our central midfield problems and someone, perhaps Stambouli, to come in as an option in midfield to allow for Bentaleb to get rotated and rested at times could be a smart move.

It could be that he sees the price as not excessive at all. Not knowing for sure what we've actually bid (and had rejected) and not having heard anything from Poch on this. Surely you realize just how speculative this is? Are you really comfortable having a go at Levy to this extent (accusing Levy of forcing players onto Poch and of not backing his manager) based on something so speculative?

Out of curiosity which "all accounts" leaves us with a large surplus from our previous dealings?

Final question. Do you think Pochettino when taking the job expected us to go after a target like Schneiderlin beyond a "reasonable fee"? To forget thinking about making good value deals and just pursue Schneiderlin until Southampton caved the way Real Madrid, Emirates Marketing Project and Man United (now) pursue their targets (although at a somewhat smaller level of course)?
 
Dubai, you're probably one of my favorite posters on here but surely you can not believe that? Levy would never compromise the wage cap we have on our players on anyone. And for arguments sake suppose he was, there is a big difference between offering a $#it load of cash to someone like Bale, who is currently a Spurs player and has proved his worth in the Premier League and to the club, and uncertain types like Hulk and Moutinhio who had never set foot in one of the big 5 leagues.


I would also like to point out that I am by no means a huge AVB fan. I actually preferred Sherwood *ducks for cover* and my appreciation of AVB extends to 'he is a nice guy' and 'It would have been nice if things turned out differently'.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...tempt-to-tie-gareth-bale-to-club-8623959.html

Regarding your first point, we have compromised the wage cap repeatedly when we felt it within our interests to do so and also when we had little choice but to do so. Trying to keep Gaz was a symbol of the former, Adebayor's 100,000 pounds a week is a symbol of the latter. There was enough space on the wage bill last year, before the club filled the ranks with high earners, for a uniform wage increase that would sate those already at the club while allowing us to make all-out efforts for the likes of Hulk and Willian. Even in 2012, the moment we shifted Van der Vaart (who was on commendably high wages himself) was when we potentially could have replaced him with a similarly-remunerated player in Moutinho had we also shifted Gallas - I believe our wage bill was flexible enough to allow that.

Regarding you not being an AVB fan, no worries, bud. I myself didn't really like him at the club by around November 2013, and wanted him gone by December. Given the choice, I wouldn't have him back now. However, I don't think he failed here because he was a bad manager, is all: he wasn't, and still isn't. He just wasn't afforded the setup he needed to succeed. I agree, it would have been nice if things turned out differently.

*throws chair in your general direction for daring to like Sherwood*
 
We were sooooo slow in possession today. Spent far too much time on the ball when we had it, few of our players made any decent runs, very little movement in general. I thought Liverpool played very well, obviously, but we can't have been particularly hard to defend against today. We looked weaker in every single fight for the ball, never won the second balls, lots of poor first touches, little movement all around. But I have to say the thing that disappointed me the most today was how little we seemed to care at 0-2 and 0-3 down, we just gave up. Lamela kept running around, he seemed to be trying, but apart from him we looked like getting a consolation goal didn't matter. We need to get that mentality straight if we're going to want to compete against the top teams this season.
 
An Rose casually jogging back, does it all the time. Sky mentioned the 24 errors from last season. Must have been at least 10 today.

A little bit harsh to apportion much blame to Rose for this particular goal imho, considering there were 2 players covering his position after he made the overlapping run.

Vertonghen should've shown Sturridge inside, where he had plenty of help, but he got caught flat footed. We were then in all kinds of trouble once Sturridge gets down the wing, as Kaboul is playing all Liverpool' midfield runners onside by dropping so much deeper than the rest of our back line.

This dribble by Sterling just epitomised how leaden-footed Kaboul and Vertonghen were today, thank feck he didn't finish it off with a goal or we'd never have heard the end of it!

[vine]OB655QJZpAU[/vine]
 
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Back from the Lane, you know what, personally, that came as no real surprise. Those opening 4 matches were no real tests so like many, as i wasnt getting carried away by our start.
There was no way Liverpool would give us the space that QPR did, and really we should have lost that game at West Ham we got out of jail there.
As has already been posted, we are who we are, and for me right now, that is well behind last seasons Top 4, but its not all doom and gloom we are still better than the majority of the rest.

Tbh we looked a beaten side as they trudged onto the pitch for the 2nd half. I read a lot into body language, wrongly or rightly. And as they come back onto the pitch I personally thought they looked spent.

I really hope we bring in another striker tomorrow because right now Harry Kane looks the best of our trio and quite frankly,no disrespect to him, we need better if we want to be winning trophies

edit: and oh yes, thank you Spurs for spoiling another weekend
 
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I honestly don't know enough about Stambouli to comment on him specifically. I don't even know if he's considered an option to Schneiderlin. Personally I think considering Bentaleb as a first choice midfielder is a potential different solution to some of our central midfield problems and someone, perhaps Stambouli, to come in as an option in midfield to allow for Bentaleb to get rotated and rested at times could be a smart move.

It could be that he sees the price as not excessive at all. Not knowing for sure what we've actually bid (and had rejected) and not having heard anything from Poch on this. Surely you realize just how speculative this is? Are you really comfortable having a go at Levy to this extent (accusing Levy of forcing players onto Poch and of not backing his manager) based on something so speculative?

Out of curiosity which "all accounts" leaves us with a large surplus from our previous dealings?

Final question. Do you think Pochettino when taking the job expected us to go after a target like Schneiderlin beyond a "reasonable fee"? To forget thinking about making good value deals and just pursue Schneiderlin until Southampton caved the way Real Madrid, Emirates Marketing Project and Man United (now) pursue their targets (although at a somewhat smaller level of course)?

In reply to your first point, it is entirely possible to rotate Bentaleb into and out of the side based on our opposition: indeed, I think it should be done regardless of whether we actually bring in Schneiderlin or not. But he can't start against teams like Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal, and he won't be able to for a long time: for that, we need a stronger, more reliable solution, and that's where the Stambouli/Schneiderlin distinction comes into the picture.

Regarding your second point, I've learned from hard experience (and, I suspect, most of the posters here have learned through hard experience) that any and all managers deserve time to put their plans into place, quite a bit of time. And with Poch, I feel we've got a potentially amazing manager on our hands: though I advocated for LvG all through the summer, he's really impressed me with his ideas and demeanour, and I think he'll shine given time. The problem is, hard experience with Levy has taught me that very often, managers are given neither the time nor the real backing (in terms of the players they want or ask for, no matter how unreasonable those requests may be) to make some history at WHL. For a variety of reasons (our financial constraints, our impatient fans, and yes, Levy's reluctance to spend money on signings he doesn't see as value for money deals) managers are very rarely given the players they really want, at least in recent history. Now, that alone is acceptable. But when combined with the lack of flexibility in the timescale afforded to them to deliver success (naturally, a manager without his first choice targets will take longer to deliver), it leads to an unwinnable solution for any coach that rocks up at the Lane: he is asked to build a winning team on a budget, within a timescale that even lavishly-backed managers would find somewhat demanding. Now, that's not entirely Levy's fault: like I said, we as fans are quite impatient - but it is majorly a product of the chairman's handling of the club over the past few years, and the most prominent display of that was last December, when Levy's curt demand for more playing time for Ade prompted AVB to finally send his resignation in.

I don't want Poch to fall into that quagmire: I think too highly of him for that. Ergo, I want one of two things: either Levy backs his man with the players he really wants (or at least ,one key player that he finds essential) or he affords his man more time than usual to get his project right. I don't trust him to do the latter: can you blame me, considering that I don't even trust myself to refrain from judging him throughout this season? Ergo, I really want him to do the former. Now, I haven't seen much evidence of that happening. I haven't seen evidence of the players we've gotten so far being forced down Poch's throat either: overall, it's been a fairly neutral summer on the 'rumors of discontent' front. But objectively, based on past evidence (mainly AVB's tenure and the Moutinho saga), which is the only solid evidence we have to go on....what conclusion would you come to? All the talk about AVB having players forced on him and of him being unhappy with our failure to close the Moutinho deal, that hasn't at least aroused your suspicions about this Schneiderlin saga?

Regarding your third point, a check with Transfermarkt should satisfy your curiosity on the subject: we made a profit last year, a large profit in 2011-2012, and given the imminent outgoings tomorrow will have broken even on this year's spending at the very least. There is excess money left lying around, especially considering the new TV rights deal kicking in (the money from which we thought would be spent last season but is yet to be seen) and our deal with AIA. That's where my confidence comes from, plus the numerous articles at the start of the summer detailing Poch's transfer kitty from the Guardian, the BBC and the Telegraph (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/27/mauricio-pochettino-new-tottenham-manager).

Finally, I think Poch expected us to try to get Schneiderlin at a reasonable fee. However, I believe that given his importance to Poch's style of play at St.Mary's and Poch's previous breaking of Southampton's transfer record when signing Dani Osvaldo, another old boy of his....I believe that given those things, Poch's idea of what a reasonable effort and fee to secure Schneiderlin is differs substantially from what Levy and Baldini consider to be truly 'reasonable'. All conjecture, but again, based on past evidence, whereas conjecture that indicates that Poch is happy with our (imo) lacklustre efforts to sign Schneiderlin is lacking a real substantive basis, imo.

Overall, you have to understand that a lot of fans, me included, are nervous about whether Poch will be given the 'backing' he needs to succeed here. I've referred to it repeatedly over the past day or so, but in my mind, backing is more than just financial: it's trust in a manager's vision for a side, faith in his eye for a player and a willingness to do what it takes to make his vision of football at Spurs a reality. While that may all well be the case at Spurs at present, will it last through the first real bad period Poch goes through? I'm not sure it really will given our painful recent history. And that's why I'm so desperate for us to sign Schneiderlin: at the very least, that signing would afford him a better tool to use when building Spurs than a player he doesn't know like Stambouli, and could in the end be the difference between Poch succeeding or failing here at WHL. If he still manages to succeed using a Stambouli instead of a Schneiderlin, great: but I'm a bit wary of taking that chance and letting him try to do so. Please understand that point.
 
If we were to imitate Liverpool with some new signings:

------------------Lloris--------------------

Walker----Fazio----Vertonghen---Davies

----------------Schneiderlin---------------

-------Sandro--------------Eriksen------

------------------Lamela------------------

-----------Adebayor----Welbeck----------


We don't have to necessarily copy their formation as such, but it seems efficient. Every component is being used properly. Ours isn't. Eriksen, Chadli feel wasted. Do we need two sitting in front of the defence? They have just Gerrard. He's not a DM in the true sense but they have really committed to pressing high and it really works. There is no waste. Nobody waits for the ball to come into their area, they hunt 2/3 towards a ball much like Barca did when they were on top of their game. It completely suffocates the opposition. Lamela presses really well. Welbeck I feel could do fantastically well off the ball.

If we can somehow get Schneiderlin, I could see him playing one of the Allen/Henderson roles, but then we lack someone to sit at the base to dictate our football. Those Henderson/Allen positions just in front of Gerrard are so effective for Rodgers' side. The energy and tone set from them is so aggressive, particularly Henderson who is now really impressive.

Lamela's work rate is fantastic. I do feel we lack a player who can really dribble past the opposition and beat them at ease. Today we had no one who could commit one of their defenders. It is Lamela's game but today he struggled. Sterling on the other hand just breezes past people for fun such is his balance. Bale was so key to us. He frightened the life out of teams and forced a whole reshuffle.

I know this isn't exactly what Pochettino is striving for necessarily in terms of personnel or formation but it does to me highlight that there is a lot of wastage right now in our side. We are not efficient in our roles, and its no easy task to shift players on and bring in new ones. A good manager will realise he has to work with the type of player he has at his disposal and adapt accordingly. Big season ahead of us, we are in good hands, but we need to be shrewd and decisive in the transfer market both tomorrow and in any future dealings. The balance of the squad has to be completely geared towards the philosophy Pochettino wants to use.
 
That was a nasty return to football at the Lane for me. We were shockingly bad!!

This isn't the Spurs I know and love. Even harking back ten years ago when we were just a middling team we were exciting, we attacked, we had tonnes of pace but thats now nonexistent. Lamela, Eriksen, Chadli all too slow to play together in three attacking roles at once. Predictable. Capoue and Bentaleb were outplayed and the defence was diabolical. Even Hugo was poor, he kicked to a red shirt every time.

Credit to Liverpool, again they've destroyed us. We led to our own downfall at times but they got their tactics spot on and in Sterling and Sturridge they still have two of the top ten players in the league. Our defence couldn't cope with their quick feet and intelligent link up play and movement. That Henderson has really come into his own too.

Their main factor however is Rodgers, he gets everything out of his team and they play entertaining football to boot, with an English crux at its centre. I said when he was at Swansea we should have gone for him and stick by that (worth a go even if Liverpool were his first choice, at the time they were in the doldrums and we may have been able to convince him IMO). We didnt though, we went for AVB and are now paying the price. We're so far behind the top four, yet I still reckon we're arguably stronger than Everton and United ATM.

However the jury is still out on Poch. It's all well and good beating QPR but we were meant to be giving the top four move of a contest under his guidance, lets hope that eventually happens.

COYS
 
Did anybody watch the Southampton vs Liverpool match last March when Liverpool won 3-0?

If you did and you can remember (for Liverpool it was around the time when their fixtures started to look tricky and we thought they were still within reach) were there any similarities in how that game went and how today's went (aside from the scoreline of course...)?
 
If we were to imitate Liverpool with some new signings:

------------------Lloris--------------------

Walker----Fazio----Vertonghen---Davies

----------------Schneiderlin---------------

-------Sandro--------------Eriksen------

------------------Lamela------------------

-----------Adebayor----Welbeck----------


We don't have to necessarily copy their formation as such, but it seems efficient. Every component is being used properly. Ours isn't. Eriksen, Chadli feel wasted. Do we need two sitting in front of the defence? They have just Gerrard. He's not a DM in the true sense but they have really committed to pressing high and it really works. There is no waste. Nobody waits for the ball to come into their area, they hunt 2/3 towards a ball much like Barca did when they were on top of their game. It completely suffocates the opposition. Lamela presses really well. Welbeck I feel could do fantastically well off the ball.

If we can somehow get Schneiderlin, I could see him playing one of the Allen/Henderson roles, but then we lack someone to sit at the base to dictate our football. Those Henderson/Allen positions just in front of Gerrard are so effective for Rodgers' side. The energy and tone set from them is so aggressive, particularly Henderson who is now really impressive.

Lamela's work rate is fantastic. I do feel we lack a player who can really dribble past the opposition and beat them at ease. Today we had no one who could commit one of their defenders. It is Lamela's game but today he struggled. Sterling on the other hand just breezes past people for fun such is his balance. Bale was so key to us. He frightened the life out of teams and forced a whole reshuffle.

I know this isn't exactly what Pochettino is striving for necessarily in terms of personnel or formation but it does to me highlight that there is a lot of wastage right now in our side. We are not efficient in our roles, and its no easy task to shift players on and bring in new ones. A good manager will realise he has to work with the type of player he has at his disposal and adapt accordingly. Big season ahead of us, we are in good hands, but we need to be shrewd and decisive in the transfer market both tomorrow and in any future dealings. The balance of the squad has to be completely geared towards the philosophy Pochettino wants to use.

Sandro looks out of place there. I think this formation needs a holder, a runner and a passer. I'm not a big Paulinho fan but I think he'd fit the runner part well.
 
DizzySlipperyHamadryad.gif

How poor is Capoue in reading Allen's turn.
 
How poor is Capoue in reading Allen's turn.

None of Capoue, Bentaleb, Vertonghen, Kaboul are "true" defenders i.e. they don't get always get goalside, they will try to nick the ball, try to be clever, a true defender will always get goalside first and make it difficult for the opposition. Several times yesterday they didn't defend first and foremost, they dived in and let Liverpool skip goalward.

Also if a player is bearing down on goal a true defender will bust a gut to get back and crash into the goalpost to save the day, whereas our defenders run back to see what happens, big difference.
 
None of Capoue, Bentaleb, Vertonghen, Kaboul are "true" defenders i.e. they don't get always get goalside, they will try to nick the ball, try to be clever, a true defender will always get goalside first and make it difficult for the opposition. Several times yesterday they didn't defend first and foremost, they dived in and let Liverpool skip goalward.

Also if a player is bearing down on goal a true defender will bust a gut to get back and crash into the goalpost to save the day, whereas our defenders run back to see what happens, big difference.

Rose is a prime example. The jogging back thing infuriates me. I thought he Poch's coaching team might have sorted this out but ye olde Danny boy was back at it again versus Liverpool.
 
for the first goal I don't think Rose can get much blame, he went forward as we had the ball, it was cheaply given away and he was too far forward to get back

if you play with attacking full backs that will happen sometimes, you can't be giving the ball away like that in the PL and get away with it, especially with the pace Liverpool have
 
None of Capoue, Bentaleb, Vertonghen, Kaboul are "true" defenders i.e. they don't get always get goalside, they will try to nick the ball, try to be clever, a true defender will always get goalside first and make it difficult for the opposition. Several times yesterday they didn't defend first and foremost, they dived in and let Liverpool skip goalward.

Also if a player is bearing down on goal a true defender will bust a gut to get back and crash into the goalpost to save the day, whereas our defenders run back to see what happens, big difference.

Another fine observation. Crikey, I can't remember the last time I agreed so wholeheartedly with two of your posts in a row. Shall we get a room?!!! :lol:
 
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