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Daniel Levy - Chairman

Discussion in 'Spurs News & Views' started by Howard Webb, 8 Feb 2012.

  1. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Frederic Kanoute

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    So do I. But to compare a chairman to Alan Sugar is like thinking that you now have a great car even though it’s just a Ford Fiesta, simply because you owned a Lada immediately beforehand. Note that I’m not saying Levy is akin to a Ford Fiesta by the way... Sugar definitely was a Lada though!

    I wonder what Levy would be in fact?.... A Hyundai maybe? Or perhaps a Kia?
     
  2. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Nick Barmby

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    And you are painting a far larger trophy laden history than what exists. We were the richest club in England in 60/61, we won the league how many times since then? When other clubs created dynasties we built a club on players and legend. Where is that wrong?
     
  3. Spur of the moment

    Spur of the moment Pat van den Hauwe

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    Thanks a bunch for wiping a cabinet full of trophies from our memories.

    If you want us to take your posts seriously how about a spot of fact checking before posting a load of old twaddle like the above?

    For perspective, no English club won more trophies during the 60s than Tottenham:

    5 - Tottenham
    4 - Manchester United
    3 - Liverpool
    2 - Emirates Marketing Project, Everton, Leeds, West Ham
    1 - Burnley, Ipswich, West Brom, Wolves, Newcastle
    0 - Arsenal, Chelsea etc.

    Also you omitted to mention that Hoddle won three major trophies with us and just one with Monaco. Gascoigne won one trophy with us (despite breaking leg along the way) and fudge all with Lazio. Gough went back to Scotland after his wife lost her father and felt homesick.

    List of Trophies NOT won since 1961 (according to Grays_1890)

    1962 - FA Cup
    1963 - European Cup winners Cup
    1967 - FA Cup
    1971 - League Cup
    1972 - UEFA Cup
    1973 - League Cup
    1981 - FA Cup
    1982 - FA Cup
    1984 - UEFA Cup
    1991 - FA Cup
    1999 - League Cup
    2008 - League Cup
     
    Last edited: 12 Apr 2020
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  4. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Frederic Kanoute

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    No I’m not I have been absolutely clear how many trophies we won. I think it was you that said we won none after 1961, that was clearly not true.

    5 in the 60s
    3 in the 70s
    3 in the 80s
    2 in the 90s
    1 in the 00’s
    0 in the 10s
     
  5. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Nick Barmby

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    12 Trophies since winning the league in 61? Despite only being out the top flight once?

    I’m not clearing the trophy cabinet and if you had a brain you would know that. I’m saying the glory glory talk has always been a fallacy, always.

    Facts are you can beat Levy over the head with the trophies but we were never prolific, your post proves that.
     
  6. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Frederic Kanoute

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    It’s 13 since winning the league in 61 by the way. You may not know this but after winning the league we also won the FA Cup that year

    2 a decade. So by rights we should’ve won 4 since Levy took over....

    Actually before Levy took over we had won 12 trophies in 4 decades so had an average of 3 a decade so should’ve won 6 since Levy took over.
     
  7. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Nick Barmby

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    The extra one makes all the difference. I still maintain the sentiment of the post, the sound bites of “the games about glory” were never matching the trophy hauls, we never created a dynasty whilst being the richest club in the world in 61 and buying the then Messi of his time. The clubs very much built on sound bites and underachievement and I maintain that.

    When I say we won nothing you will know I didn’t mean it non-figuratively I meant it against the belief that we were hugely successful, we were not. Most players past say we underachieved based on what we “threatened and what we actually produced”

    The point is you make it sound like Levy turned United into West Ham when in reality he took over a club that was 20 years behind Man United and put us in the same ball park.

    If you can hand on heart say when Levy and Co took over you saw us in the CL year in year out only a couple of years after having to beat Barnsley away to beat a threat of the drop then you are a better man than me.

    If you actually maintain you have nothing against Levy but can’t see the good he has done I struggle with that, you have done nothing but pull him apart.
     
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  8. Spur of the moment

    Spur of the moment Pat van den Hauwe

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    No one's pretending we have been prolific trophy winners, but to dismiss what we HAVE achieved in such a cavalier fashion is contemptible.

    As to the Levy years, you conveniently overlook the reality that a fair proportion of trophies were effectively bought by a Russian oligarch and a Middle East oil sheikh.

    For sure following financial shenanigans and near bankruptcy by Scholar et al we suffered a long period in the doldrums just at a time when our biggest rivals were able to benefit from the virtuous circle of CL qualification which afforded them a considerable head start by the time Levy took over.

    As a result it could even be argued that the Big Boys have acquired such a monopoly on the major trophies over the last three decades that as a club we have ended up developing something of an inferiority complex. It certainly feels like that.
     
  9. Jurgen the German

    Jurgen the German Chris Jones

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    Levy has done great things for us. He also could have done things better at times. The two aren’t mutually exclusive for me.

    I posted this in another thread. I disagree with certain posters is that whilst I can appreciate everything Levy has done, I believe he and the ownership could have done better in certain areas to make the club even more successful just as I believe the players and the managers could have done things better at times. I look at Levy no differently than the players. I want him to improve certain aspects. Whereas I get the impression some people on here genuinely believe Levy could not have done any more or done anything differently without going into specifics.

    I don’t know many Chelsea fans who are critical of Abramovich. Morally he’s a reprehensible person but you can’t argue with the success they have achieved. You can understand to a point why they are grateful to him and are scared to be critical as they are probably terrified he will leave and they will go back to being a nothing club. As great as Levy has been we haven’t enjoyed anywhere near that level of success. Relatively speaking we have been successful compared to what we had to endure in the 90s but success is measured on trophies as well. May sound harsh but that is the main thing we support the club for, not balance sheets, training grounds at events at the new stadium.
     
  10. parklane1

    parklane1 Gary Stevens

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    Looking at it that way you are right, however its not Levy's fault that so many of our players bottled it at important times. We lacked a winning me ntal ity and that was down to the players and managers not Levy. ( yet another dig at Levy by you over the last few weeks)
     
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  11. Spur of the moment

    Spur of the moment Pat van den Hauwe

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    So Levy was supposed to match Abramovitch's achievements despite having a fraction of the £multi-millions available to invest?

    Don't make me laugh.
     
  12. Jurgen the German

    Jurgen the German Chris Jones

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    Talk about completely misreading/misunderstanding a post. Chelsea have been arguably the most successful club in England over the last 15 years. Their fans back him seemingly unconditionally as a result. Levy has done great things for the club but we have not achieved anywhere near that level of success. It wasn’t mean as a comparison as in Levy has failed compared to Abramovich. Where have I said anything about matching their success? I am saying relatively speaking, in my opinion we have not achieved levels of success that explain such undying loyalty to Levy. To the point where questioning him leads to getting shouted down and being told didn’t you know where we were when he took over etc. I don’t expect us to dominate football like Chelsea did with our budget. But I find it strange that raising areas where he could do better is met with such short shrift.
     
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  13. Spur of the moment

    Spur of the moment Pat van den Hauwe

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    You have me in stitches now. Read your own posts again.

    'Chelsea have been arguably the most successful club in England over the last 15 years. Their fans back him seemingly unconditionally as a result. Levy has done great things for the club but we have not achieved anywhere near that level of success.'

    What's that if it's not a comparison between Chelsea and Tottenham? Right there in black and white.

    It's absurd to even discuss the two clubs in the same paragraph because they are chalk and cheese. One has BOUGHT success, the other has been obliged to grow the club organically.
     
  14. Jurgen the German

    Jurgen the German Chris Jones

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    Erm, we haven’t attained anything close to that level of success. Football is about winning. Seen as how you seem to be insistent on cherry picking on every post whilst ignoring everything else I will spell it out in plain English. I DO NOT EXPECT US TO BE AS SUCCESSFUL AS CHELSEA! However, the club acquired an unbelievable collection of players over the last 10 years, coupled with our rivals all having transitional seasons. It feels a bit like a missed opportunity.

    It would be helpful if you could read what people actually type instead of taking everything so personally and fixating on one line of a post.
     
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  15. thfcsteff

    thfcsteff Gary Stevens Staff Member

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    Here is my biggest issue (and truthfully, I will never fully get over it. Never. Sadly...)

    Trophies or not, Levy found the perfect partner in Poch. They worked together. They built together. There was real congruence.

    I found a pride and deep love for the club once more on a very feral level. I had not felt that way since Burky (Martin Jol raised my temperature I admit, and started the "pride again" ball rolling). Redknapp? Fun days but built by a scam artist (IMO).
    But Poch? It was real. Deep. Rooted.
    And Levy was every inch the man who made it happen. HE found him, HE stuck with him in the early tricky days.
    Yet he STILL found ways to persistently undermine him in small ways. Perhaps not even on purpose, maybe more on instinct.
    But the facts are that Levy could not find a way to work with, or keep faith in, the ONE man who had given it ALL back to us and was en route to a proper dynasty (that last bit, I concede, is conjecture on my part).

    So am I grateful for Daniel Levy and his excellent work? Absolutely.
    Do I mourn his in ability to properly maintain, and keep, his greatest work at our football club? Absolutely.
    Am I angry at him? Not really, because it is who he is. It wasn't personal. He is who he is.
    Has something changed for me? Yes. I will -like all of us- celebrate any victories or trophies. As I did between the years of Burky/Shreeves and Poch. But they will be victories and wins based on decades of loyal support and the simple joy of winning. However, for me anyway, there will always be a degree missing.

    Having said that, as always,thank you to Levy for all the good he has done and COYS.
     
  16. DubaiSpur

    DubaiSpur Jimmy McCormick

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    Come now, that's not really fair. He's not comparing the trophy records of us and Chelsea, he's rightly pointing out why Chelsea fans support Abramovich so unconditionally - the trophies and the success, the history and the etching of their name into the records, by force.

    Absolutely none of which we have. Instead, we have the best balance sheets in the league, the lowest wages-to-turnover ratio in the league, the prettiest accounting books, and all those DVDs with nothing at the end of them. Oh, and a new stadium that is now a convenient excuse to not pay our staff - ordinary folks, who our apparently brilliant, organically-grown balance sheets nonetheless aren't strong enough to cover. Grimly amusing.

    And some (some) of our fans are unconditionally defensive of Levy for exactly that. The 20 years of near-trophyless balance sheets instead become some superhuman achievement never to be repeated, and Levy is seen as some footballing Adonis with nerves of steel. Instead of, y'know, a roughly above-average chairman with a good business head who evidently gives absolutely no f*cks about the people who work for him if it makes him a quick buck.

    It is absolutely not a reflection on them. In my opinion, it's a miasma that's been hovering over us for a while now, because of the depressing ways in which we've come close but always failed, never made that final step, never pulled the trigger, never backed our managers when it mattered. It builds up, and people find escapes where they can. But it happens nonetheless.

    Those are also hard truths, imo. Also worth stating, since we're apparently being forthright about what we are.
     
  17. Spur of the moment

    Spur of the moment Pat van den Hauwe

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    You're still overlooking the fundamental point here. If you want to benchmark Levy against other chairmen then how about starting from a relatively level playing field? Choose another chairman who started out with comparatively minimal resources rather than one that won the lottery.

    Apples with apples rather than a single apple with a lorry load of them. THEN we can start making realistic comparisons about how much has been invested in the team etc.
     
    Last edited: 13 Apr 2020
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  18. Hootnow

    Hootnow Jermaine Jenas

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    With respect mate (and happy to be corrected if I've also gotten the wrong end of the stick) but I think you've misunderstood what the original poster was saying.

    He's saying that he thinks Levy has done a very good job but he doesn't understand the sometimes undying loyalty he gets from some on here.

    On the other hand, he understands why some Chelsea fans may feel that way towards RA because he non-figuratively saved the club from bankruptcy. To provide a less emotive example, I could also see why Bournemouth fans for instance would feel undying loyalty to Howe and their chairman, having come up from league 2 and having (I believe) the smallest stadium and budget in the PL consistently.

    He is not saying that Levy (or Lewis) should have pumped in lots of money or that you need to do so to get undying loyalty. He is, I believe, saying that while Levy has done a generally excellent job, especially in the infrastructure department, he has ultimately taken a club with the 5th biggest turnover when he came and 20 years later...we're roughly in the same ballpark. And that the majority of this incredible on field success has so far come under 1 manager so let's see if it carries on before jumping to conclusions (this is more me).

    This is of course a ridiculous over simplification and I'm incredibly grateful for all Levy has done.
     
  19. billyiddo

    billyiddo David Ginola Staff Member

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    That "5th biggest revenue to the same ball park now" line completely ignores the interveening years where a vast casm grew financially because of Sky/Top 4/CL money. Closing that gap is no mean feat, let alone over turning it, whislt building a benchmark stadium.
    Look at the other traditional big clubs of England (Leeds, Newcastle, Everton, Villa) who were all at one point in a position to threaten that established order and you'll see why our owners are well supported. Not only did they not put us to the wall or relegate us they actually succeeded in smashing through that glass ceiling - the big 4 is now a big 6 and it's a big 6 because 2 clubs have muscled their way in, one is ourselves and one is oil state funded Emirates Marketing Project....
     
    Last edited: 13 Apr 2020
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  20. DubaiSpur

    DubaiSpur Jimmy McCormick

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    I have. A while ago, I repeatedly made comparisons with a range of chairmen across European football - Jean-Michel Aulas (OL), Andrea Agnelli (Juve), Hans-Joachim Watzke (Dortmund), Enrique Cerezo (Atletico), José Castro Carmona (Sevilla) and so on.

    In four of those cases (OL, Juve, Atletico and Dortmund), those chairmen actually took over when their clubs were far lower than where Spurs were when Levy took over. OL were provincial nobodies who had never won anything. Juve had just been relegated, and had finished in the bottom half upon their return to Serie A. Dortmund almost went bankrupt, and were only saved by loans from their former rivals and some astute quick thinking by Watzke. Atletico had been relegated to the Segunda Division, and were teetering on the brink of insolvency.

    Many of those chairmen have had tenures comparable to Levy. All of them- *all of them* have won more than we have in the same time-frame, at comparably sized clubs. Four of those five have won their domestic leagues, three of them have won European titles. Three of them have also transformed their clubs into financially secure clubs with new stadiums, while winning.

    Those chairmen won trophies. Their focus was not on the prettiest balance sheet, nor on screwing their staff to save pennies on wages in a time of crisis and earn your 3m bonus. That was Levy.

    Levy's a competent handler of the club. Competent. Certainly far from the worst. But he's no genius, or the sort of unmatched savant that his completely unconditional fans paint him out to be. And it is this opinion ,along with Joe Lewis being an utterly useless tax exile paperweight, that has caused no end of trouble across a hundred threads and eight years here. :p


    I think that's what @Jurgen the German was referring to (if I understand him correctly)- the unconditional, unquestioning support that Levy gets, which is a bit weird when compared to chairmen that actually win things and don't do the sorts of things we've done during this lockdown. That's all.

    He even acknowledges that Levy's done an excellent job - I wouldn't go nearly as far myself. :p


     
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