Taking stock: are we heading for another Chelski style car-crash ?

[glorygloryeze]

Not kneejerk, honest!:-"

Today's game brought to a head some things that I have been worried for a few weeks about:

- We don't seem to be a team like Arsenal or other challengers for top 4 that has even semi-clinical finishing prowess; Yes we've had this issue for a while, but I'm struggling to see signs that AVB will ever mould a tram that creates and scores a relatively high number of goals. In fact, even in those cases when we can and should be racking up the goals, we don't seem to actually want to against poor opposition. 2 goals up and we seem to actively ease off. Thus our GD is always worse off than our direct rivals. GHod knows what would have been the case without Bale.
I seem to remember Chelski under AVB being mostly less potent than the previous seasons. And hanging onto slim leads was often punished by the concession of late goals, in PL and esp in the CL.

- Perhaps a part of this is AVB insistence on playing with only one striker; He actively didn't seem to want to buy a striker last January; remember the reaction to Defoe's injury: buy Holtby now not in the summer! If we were only to always play one striker it seems that Benteke or somebody with some of those physical attributes would have been more ideal than Soldado (who cost 26m so was not a stop-gap...). AVB wanted to use Torres or Sturridge instead of also integrate Lukaku. You need more than one way to score; in fact how limp are we now from set-pieces since Bale has left?

- Our conceding of goals from set-pieces is also poor; How have we become so bad in this regard?? Harry's team were very good in this regard so the fact we've gone backwards on this issue has to be done to AVB's coaching methods...again I remember Chelski getting weaker in this area...

- We seem to be hell-bent on using our high-line at all costs, even though we have two of the slowest CBs in the league, who whilst good are always going to be susceptible to traditional British balls over the top with pacy runners attacking. Again Chelski seemed to have the same problems, highlighted very often, most famously in their 5-3 loss against Arsenal.

- Our build-up play is often far too slow, just like what Chelski fans claimed...

It would be interesting to see whether AVB's Porto side ever scored hatfuls or were just winners by 1-0s and 2-0s over the season.
I just fear that AVB's performance in a league like the Prem will always be infuriating until he is able to be less cautious and do get the basics (for this league anyway) right.

Happy to be shot down on the above points with detailed arguments against. I'm especially keen to hear from Thfcsteff, AfricanSpurs, Skyfarer, Mumorn, Braineclipse, BrainOfLevy, Naija, Jurgen plus anyone who can give detailed views for or against.

Thanks

GGE

 

[Essex Yid]

We've lost two games this season. Chill.

 

[glorygloryeze]

We've lost two games this season. Chill.

I hear you; i'd like to think I am over-worrying, but my fears are not just based on this season...

 

[Jurgen the German]

I agree about the high line. Lloris has got us out of trouble so many times already this season. Teams get behind us worryingly easily. Playing a high line with two slow CB's isn't a recipe for success, that's my view anyway, especially when Walker isn't positionally sound enough to be in line with the other defenders. As much as I can't stand Mourinho, his first Chelsea team were so strong in that regard, the line they held as a unit was outstanding.

AVB not getting a striker in January, I have my suspicions that Levy was behind that rather than AVB.

Today was a bad day, but I've noticed already that we're creating chances in abundance compared to last season. There were literally games last season when we created nothing at home to the likes of Wigan, WBA, Norwich. I have faith in Soldado, Eriksen and Paulinho. Eriksen will be the creative spark we've missed for years and Soldado and Paulinho will score goals once they're fully acclimatised to the league.

My big concern is AVB tactically. His subs don't fill me with confidence. I don't have confidence in him to change things when we're not playing well. Last year Bale digged us out of trouble time after time, we don't have a world class player like that anymore so it's on AVB and the players he picks.

 

[superfaisty]

Im not sure about all the other stuff but one of the most infuriating things for me about an avb spurs team is the lack of speed of movement of the ball. Slow and steady in possession will not win the epl- the best teams are quck and direct and ruthless. We have technically gifted players now so theres no excuse.

Getting lennon back will help with pace of our game until lamela settles.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Oh and what has happened to AVB's ability to look at what's happening in the pitch and changing things accordingly?

Subs against Arsenal, Chelski and now West Ham were very odd to say the least. This is one thing that he did well mostly last season, especially from December onwards. So why has he become so oblivious to some obvious needs this time? Sandro not coming on last week seemed a one-off...

 

[glorygloryeze]

I agree about the high line. Lloris has got us out of trouble so many times already this season. Teams get behind us worryingly easily. Playing a high line with two slow CB's isn't a recipe for success, that's my view anyway, especially when Walker isn't positionally sound enough to be in line with the other defenders. As much as I can't stand Mourinho, his first Chelsea team were so strong in that regard, the line they held as a unit was outstanding.

AVB not getting a striker in January, I have my suspicions that Levy was behind that rather than AVB.

Today was a bad day, but I've noticed already that we're creating chances in abundance compared to last season. There were literally games last season when we created nothing at home to the likes of Wigan, WBA, Norwich. I have faith in Soldado, Eriksen and Paulinho. Eriksen will be the creative spark we've missed for years and Soldado and Paulinho will score goals once they're fully acclimatised to the league.

My big concern is AVB tactically. His subs don't fill me with confidence. I don't have confidence in him to change things when we're not playing well. Last year Bale digged us out of trouble time after time, we don't have a world class player like that anymore so it's on AVB and the players he picks.

Not sure about that one; remember we could have got Negredo for half of what we have now paid for Soldado. And AVB spoke a bit too much in saying 'he didn't need a striker'; he could just have said 'we'll see what we can find it would be great, but of not we'll plough on regardless'

Hmm... his play one striker at all times methods suggests AVB himself said to Levy "Chill, I got this, just get me Holtby and watch we work my magic.."

Happy to be corrected on this by anyone <<really>> close to the club...Steff..?:-"

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Oh and what has happened to AVB's ability to look at what's happening in the pitch and changing things accordingly?

Subs against Arsenal, Chelski and now West Ham were very odd to say the least. This is one thing that he did well mostly last season, especially from December onwards. So why has he become so oblivious to some obvious needs this time? Sandro not coming on last week seemed a one-off...

In my 30 plus years going to the lane there has not been a manager whose subs i did not agree with.

Actually agree with your other posts in this thread though and i would like to say just two words to you......


LES FERDINAND

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I agree about the high line. Lloris has got us out of trouble so many times already this season. Teams get behind us worryingly easily. Playing a high line with two slow CB's isn't a recipe for success, that's my view anyway, especially when Walker isn't positionally sound enough to be in line with the other defenders. As much as I can't stand Mourinho, his first Chelsea team were so strong in that regard, the line they held as a unit was outstanding.

AVB not getting a striker in January, I have my suspicions that Levy was behind that rather than AVB.

Today was a bad day, but I've noticed already that we're creating chances in abundance compared to last season. There were literally games last season when we created nothing at home to the likes of Wigan, WBA, Norwich. I have faith in Soldado, Eriksen and Paulinho. Eriksen will be the creative spark we've missed for years and Soldado and Paulinho will score goals once they're fully acclimatised to the league.

My big concern is AVB tactically. His subs don't fill me with confidence. I don't have confidence in him to change things when we're not playing well. Last year Bale digged us out of trouble time after time, we don't have a world class player like that anymore so it's on AVB and the players he picks.

Maybe more then last season but still not enough for a team going for the top 4.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Hold on, is Les Ferdinand still the striker coach???

 

[glorygloryeze]

In my 30 plus years going to the lane there has not been a manager whose subs i did not agree with.

Actually agree with your other posts in this thread though and i would like to say just two words to you......


LES FERDINAND

Just to check do you mean you've not disagreed with other manager's subs as much as you do with AVB's? Or do you mean he's no different from all the others over 30 years (in that you as many issues with AVB's subs as with any made by all our other managers)?

Sorry, just checking..

 

[braineclipse]

Not kneejerk, honest!:-"

Today's game brought to a head some things that I have been worried for a few weeks about:

1. - We don't seem to be a team like Arsenal or other challengers for top 4 that has even semi-clinical finishing prowess; Yes we've had this issue for a while, but I'm struggling to see signs that AVB will ever mould a tram that creates and scores a relatively high number of goals. In fact, even in those cases when we can and should be racking up the goals, we don't seem to actually want to against poor opposition. 2 goals up and we seem to actively ease off. Thus our GD is always worse off than our direct rivals. GHod knows what would have been the case without Bale.
I seem to remember Chelski under AVB being mostly less potent than the previous seasons. And hanging onto slim leads was often punished by the concession of late goals, in PL and esp in the CL.

2. - Perhaps a part of this is AVB insistence on playing with only one striker; He actively didn't seem to want to buy a striker last January; remember the reaction to Defoe's injury: buy Holtby now not in the summer! If we were only to always play one striker it seems that Benteke or somebody with some of those physical attributes would have been more ideal than Soldado (who cost 26m so was not a stop-gap...). AVB wanted to use Torres or Sturridge instead of also integrate Lukaku. You need more than one way to score; in fact how limp are we now from set-pieces since Bale has left?

3. - Our conceding of goals from set-pieces is also poor; How have we become so bad in this regard?? Harry's team were very good in this regard so the fact we've gone backwards on this issue has to be done to AVB's coaching methods...again I remember Chelski getting weaker in this area...

4. - We seem to be hell-bent on using our high-line at all costs, even though we have two of the slowest CBs in the league, who whilst good are always going to be susceptible to traditional British balls over the top with pacy runners attacking. Again Chelski seemed to have the same problems, highlighted very often, most famously in their 5-3 loss against Arsenal.

5. - Our build-up play is often far too slow, just like what Chelski fans claimed...

It would be interesting to see whether AVB's Porto side ever scored hatfuls or were just winners by 1-0s and 2-0s over the season.
I just fear that AVB's performance in a league like the Prem will always be infuriating until he is able to be less cautious and do get the basics (for this league anyway) right.

Happy to be shot down on the above points with detailed arguments against. I'm especially keen to hear from Thfcsteff, AfricanSpurs, Skyfarer, Mumorn, Braineclipse, BrainOfLevy, Naija, Jurgen plus anyone who can give detailed views for or against.

Thanks

GGE

Put numbers in just to make my response a bit tidier.

1. We scored 66 goals last season, the same as Emirates Marketing Project, 6 behind Arsenal, 9 behind Chelsea, 5 behind Liverpool. Liverpool were the only team behind us on the table that outscored us. Goals against looked at least as bad, if not worse, compared to the other top teams.

2. Loads of teams that score plenty of goals play with a lone striker.

I do agree that we need more ways to score and that having a plan B is a good idea. I think we can score quite a few different goals actually, but we do lack a real physical option up front without Ade and it's been evident in a couple of our games.

3. This is something that needs work, but I disagree that this was that much better under Redknapp. I remember us looking distinctly vulnerable at least and I remember all the same discussions about corners and whatnot going on as well.

4. Vertonghen is not one of the slowest centre backs in the league.

The number of goals we've actually conceded because of our high line this season I think is very small.

This is another one, like zonal marking for corners, where perception seems wildly skewed. A team defends deeps and concedes a goal and everyone points at individual mistakes, good attacking etc. I struggle to remember when a team that defended deep conceded and some pundit blamed their deep defensive line suggesting that the manager should change to a higher line.

To me it seems like AVB is building a real modern and progressive side in this regard. We're not always pressing high up the pitch, and we're not always playing the high line imo. But we have that option in our locker to a greater extent than before and I think that's a good thing. Like having different ways to score having different ways to defend is also a good thing. Having that high pressure, high line, defending in our locker makes us stronger I think. And it's something most big teams are capable of, perhaps Mourinho's Chelsea was the exception, but I'm not even sure they were. They often defended deep against good teams, but from what I remember they were more than capable of strangling smaller sides by pressing way up the pitch.

For me there's still a lot of improvement to be had in our pressing still, but (ignoring the West Ham game) it's looked good so far this season.

5. It is. It bugs me. I don't even mind the slow buildup play if it's in periods punctuated by explosiveness, movement and real attacking intent. But when we get stuck in a sludge and cannot get out of it it does bug really bug me.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Hold on, is Les Ferdinand still the striker coach???

YES

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Just to check do you mean you've not disagreed with other manager's subs as much as you do with AVB's? Or do you mean he's no different from all the others over 30 years (in that you as many issues with AVB's subs as with any made by all our other managers)?

Sorry, just checking..

My fault for not making that clear, i was actually going to do the quote from the shawshank redemption when andy tries to get funding for the library and the other cons tell him that 4 wardens have been through in their time at the prison and their arseholes pucker up when you ask them for money as sure as anything. Well as sure as anything i will disagree with every manager we have had in the last 30 years with regards the subs they make.

Happens more often when we lose though.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Put numbers in just to make my response a bit tidier.

1. We scored 66 goals last season, the same as Emirates Marketing Project, 6 behind Arsenal, 9 behind Chelsea, 5 behind Liverpool. Liverpool were the only team behind us on the table that outscored us. Goals against looked at least as bad, if not worse, compared to the other top teams.

2. Loads of teams that score plenty of goals play with a lone striker.

I do agree that we need more ways to score and that having a plan B is a good idea. I think we can score quite a few different goals actually, but we do lack a real physical option up front without Ade and it's been evident in a couple of our games.

3. This is something that needs work, but I disagree that this was that much better under Redknapp. I remember us looking distinctly vulnerable at least and I remember all the same discussions about corners and whatnot going on as well.

4. Vertonghen is not one of the slowest centre backs in the league.

The number of goals we've actually conceded because of our high line this season I think is very small.

This is another one, like zonal marking for corners, where perception seems wildly skewed. A team defends deeps and concedes a goal and everyone points at individual mistakes, good attacking etc. I struggle to remember when a team that defended deep conceded and some pundit blamed their deep defensive line suggesting that the manager should change to a higher line.

To me it seems like AVB is building a real modern and progressive side in this regard. We're not always pressing high up the pitch, and we're not always playing the high line imo. But we have that option in our locker to a greater extent than before and I think that's a good thing. Like having different ways to score having different ways to defend is also a good thing. Having that high pressure, high line, defending in our locker makes us stronger I think. And it's something most big teams are capable of, perhaps Mourinho's Chelsea was the exception, but I'm not even sure they were. They often defended deep against good teams, but from what I remember they were more than capable of strangling smaller sides by pressing way up the pitch.

For me there's still a lot of improvement to be had in our pressing still, but (ignoring the West Ham game) it's looked good so far this season.

5. It is. It bugs me. I don't even mind the slow buildup play if it's in periods punctuated by explosiveness, movement and real attacking intent. But when we get stuck in a sludge and cannot get out of it it does bug really bug me.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Are you sure about the bolded bit? Are you not talking about discussions also happening during Redknapp's time regarding not scoring from corners as opposed to conceding from them?

Also on all the points you've counted, do you have a view on how they are different to AVB's 9 month spell at Chelski? That's the overall theme that worries me the most, i.e that he/we may be heading towards similar failings.

Ta!

 

[DubaiSpur]

Put numbers in just to make my response a bit tidier.

1. We scored 66 goals last season, the same as Emirates Marketing Project, 6 behind Arsenal, 9 behind Chelsea, 5 behind Liverpool. Liverpool were the only team behind us on the table that outscored us. Goals against looked at least as bad, if not worse, compared to the other top teams.

2. Loads of teams that score plenty of goals play with a lone striker.

I do agree that we need more ways to score and that having a plan B is a good idea. I think we can score quite a few different goals actually, but we do lack a real physical option up front without Ade and it's been evident in a couple of our games.

3. This is something that needs work, but I disagree that this was that much better under Redknapp. I remember us looking distinctly vulnerable at least and I remember all the same discussions about corners and whatnot going on as well.

4. Vertonghen is not one of the slowest centre backs in the league.

The number of goals we've actually conceded because of our high line this season I think is very small.

This is another one, like zonal marking for corners, where perception seems wildly skewed. A team defends deeps and concedes a goal and everyone points at individual mistakes, good attacking etc. I struggle to remember when a team that defended deep conceded and some pundit blamed their deep defensive line suggesting that the manager should change to a higher line.

To me it seems like AVB is building a real modern and progressive side in this regard. We're not always pressing high up the pitch, and we're not always playing the high line imo. But we have that option in our locker to a greater extent than before and I think that's a good thing. Like having different ways to score having different ways to defend is also a good thing. Having that high pressure, high line, defending in our locker makes us stronger I think. And it's something most big teams are capable of, perhaps Mourinho's Chelsea was the exception, but I'm not even sure they were. They often defended deep against good teams, but from what I remember they were more than capable of strangling smaller sides by pressing way up the pitch.

For me there's still a lot of improvement to be had in our pressing still, but (ignoring the West Ham game) it's looked good so far this season.

5. It is. It bugs me. I don't even mind the slow buildup play if it's in periods punctuated by explosiveness, movement and real attacking intent. But when we get stuck in a sludge and cannot get out of it it does bug really bug me.

Good post, and generally points I agree with, but I do hear a lot of commentators urging teams to push up and stop dropping deep when they have a lead. It's a generally an accepted thing that dropping onto your penalty spot invites pressure, and failing to come out quickly enough after a corner is dangerous to do. Well, in Martin Tyler and Alan Smith's view, anyway.

 

[spasm]

Honest tactical question.

If all goes to plan, how exactly is AVB's system suppose to play out?

Also, with the players he has on the bench, is he able to i) implement a Plan B, ii) counter tactical changes made by the opposition and/or iii) simply replace off form personnel with similar type players?

Answers in thesis format please. Thanks.

 

[jamonserrano]

- Perhaps a part of this is AVB insistence on playing with only one striker; He actively didn't seem to want to buy a striker last January; remember the reaction to Defoe's injury: buy Holtby now not in the summer! If we were only to always play one striker it seems that Benteke or somebody with some of those physical attributes would have been more ideal than Soldado (who cost 26m so was not a stop-gap...). AVB wanted to use Torres or Sturridge instead of also integrate Lukaku. You need more than one way to score; in fact how limp are we now from set-pieces since Bale has left?

It was a reaction to Sandro's injury and made a lot of sense.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Honest tactical question.

If all goes to plan, how exactly is AVB's system suppose to play out?

Also, with the players he has on the bench, is he able to i) implement a Plan B, ii) counter tactical changes made by the opposition and/or iii) simply replace off form personnel with similar type players?

Answers in thesis format please. Thanks.

First question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1t02xb9cg8

Second question:

1) Partially. We've bought well, but only players of a certain type, able to replace others without a drop off in quality. See Paulinho (for Dembele), Capoue (for Sandro), Chiriches (for Verts), Eriksen (for Holtby), and Chadli (for Sigurdsson) for examples. We have no 'game-changer' we can bring off the bench offensively, someone who can completely change our style of play. This is why I was a wee bit baffled we spent 26 million on Soldado (a master finisher) instead of 25 million on Benteke (a powerful lad, great in the air and unstoppable physically). Benteke would have allowed us to completely change our style of play off the bench or from the start, giving us a powerful totem pole to aim at and negating the need for intricate approach play. Good for when we're behind or struggling to score. Soldado....well, he certainly helps our build-up play, but he can't alter a game plan if he came on, just improve it. Benteke could have. So, offensively, can't change much off the bench. Defensively, however, we can. At the start of the season most imagined we would play at least one of our two dedicated DMs (Sandro and Capoue). Save for a few games, however, AVB has looked like sticking to a starting combo of Dembele-Paulinho-Eriksen. Now, if we get a goal and he wants to switch things up defensively, then he can definitely get a Plan B off the bench: either put Sandro on and close down the area in front of the back line, recycling possession from deep and making a slow advance forward while retaining the ball, or put Capoue on to mop up in front of the back line but also ping long-range passes from deep to initiate quick counter-attacks. Both those are radically different defensive options to have, and in that regard he can indeed implement a Plan B, defensively.

2) If he uses the players he has, he can (putting Sandro on to counter the introduction of Mata last week, for example, or putting Lamela on to stretch the play yesterday), but he doesn't use them for whatever reason until it's often too late to stem the turning of the tide.

3)He can definitely do that. See 1) for details.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Bump...?