Why are we such a pushover against the top sides?

[paxtonwolf]

I truly think these current players themselves have no self-belief that they can go and beat the top teams. Some of them look beaten before they take to the pitch, in the tunnel before the Anfield drubbing last season, half of them looked beaten even before the early own goal.
And as suggested in the OT, the way the players trudged back onto the pitch for the 2nd half yesterday, they look uninterested, I might be going OTT but I want to see my team running out of that tunnel at HT, pumped up, Managers words ringing in their ears, eager to get back into the action and put things right.
At no point in that 2nd half was I confident we could grab a goal let alone a draw.

We need another Rafa-type characther back in the squad that can urge the team on and lead by example

 

[Raziel]

Some good points there

1. I've been going every week for the last 15 years and the main thing for me is that we dont have a leader.. At the moment when the chips are down we tend to just loose the plot. There's nobody telling others to pull their socks up and keep their heads up. The mentally is also v poor and has been since we bought the latest crop of players in last summer, none of them seem to care much about the Spurs shirt, not much fight.

2. Spine of the team. Looking at Lloris, Bentaleb/Capoue and Ade down the middle it currently doesnt fill me with solidality. Even Lloris yesterday started to panic and make strange decisions.

3. Centre midfield - We were like power puffs yesterday, cant remember many tackles and were out played. Sandro needs to come back in asap. We so miss his intensity and his desire translates to others. Perhaps he's not the best passer but he brings so much more, and when he plays our win percentage is so mch higher without him

4. When we had Modric he would control the game and tempo, he's never been replaced. Big error not buying Juan Moutinho few years ago as a replacement! We still could try and buy Miralem Pjanic who is top draw and would fill that role.

I think Poch knows we are weak in centre midfield hence the moves for Schneiderlin all summer and now he's bought Stambouli. Shame we didnt get Schneiderlin, i think we should have broke the bank.

A few comments

- Lloris, Holtby and Lamela care ... unfortunately we are getting rid of one
- I disagree with breaking the bank for MS, and here's why ..
- We need that player, yes, MS would have filled a role, but he isn't/won't be Modric/Moutinho/Pjanic. I much prefer we get Poch settled in and next window/summer we break the back for a player worth breaking the bank for in that role.

 

[Superhudd]

A few comments

- Lloris, Holtby and Lamela care ... unfortunately we are getting rid of one
- I disagree with breaking the bank for MS, and here's why ..
- We need that player, yes, MS would have filled a role, but he isn't/won't be Modric/Moutinho/Pjanic. I much prefer we get Poch settled in and next window/summer we break the back for a player worth breaking the bank for in that role.

% likelihood that player next window/ summer is Schneiderlin.






99%

 

[Spurmac1974]

I think in games like yesterday we are going to have to start using Paulinho instead of Eriksen as the #10 - switch more to 4-3-3.

Couldn't believe how poor Eriksen was yesterday, followed closely by Lamela and Chadli. That 3 certainly isnt the answer against the better teams, flat track bullies!

 

[Jurgen the German]

Better strikers would also help. Dunno why Eriksen is always spacegoated every time we suffer a heavy defeat. Might wanna look at the terrible defence. Would ANY of our defenders get in the likes of Arsenal, Liverpool, Emirates Marketing Project or Chelsea's sides? Hell even Everton?

 

[Rorschach]

You're correct but you cant blame Capoue and Bentaleb.
The lost midfield because they were outnumbered 3 to 2.
They hadnt a chance. Also Liverpool had Sterling in between the lines which one of them had to pick up too.

Yep. No platform to build off really. Yesterday's match was crying out for a change to three in the middle. We also needed to kick Sterling, hard, a few times. Take a yellow if you have to.

This is a good thread but the real reason we get beaten by the top teams is money. All the bollox about what a great coach LVG is and basically Utd have just gone out and blitzed everyone in the transfer market.

 

[Raziel]

Yep. No platform to build off really. Yesterday's match was crying out for a change to three in the middle. We also needed to kick Sterling, hard, a few times. Take a yellow if you have to.

This is a good thread but the real reason we get beaten by the top teams is money. All the bollox about what a great coach LVG is and basically Utd have just gone out and blitzed everyone in the transfer market.

And United still won't win the title this season.

Btw, can you imagine the media field day if we had signed LVG and got the exact same results they have had to this point?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

We lose CM.

Last time we looked good against them (AVB's first season) - Sandro and Dembele went toe-to-toe with them. Bentaleb (great prospect though he is) and Capoue, get overrun in these sorts of games - they aren't combatative enough

I just think we are poor at defending. As soon as anyone attacks us we pretty much concede. We dominate most other games

A combination of the two above. Our defenders are substantially worse in terms of defending ability than their attackers are in terms of attacking ability. Kaboul looked completely bedazzled by the movement of Sterling and Sturridge yesterday. The only way to counteract that is to win the midfield battle and control possession and the tempo of the game, which we failed at also.

 

[Rorschach]

And United still won't win the title this season.

Btw, can you imagine the media field day if we had signed LVG and got the exact same results they have had to this point?

We'd all be going full depart at this point.

They may not win the title but with those players only an imbecile wouldn't be able to turn around their poor start to the season. Football is mostly about the quality of players and that correlates closely to the club finances.

 

[Bullet]

Big error not buying Juan Moutinho few years ago as a replacement

Interesting tonight, watching Phil Neville and Danny Murphy on the red button on BBC

They say that Everton looked hard at Moutinho and then Spurs did, but he isn't all that good and had a rubbish year at Monaco, even going so far as to say he is a luxury player and not good enough to spend big money on.

 

[Joesh]

I think we react badly to pressure whether from the opposition or our own fans. Pressure makes even a good player useless and perhaps not having strong players/leaders to get us through the hard times has cost us. Against Liverpool, how many shots did we actually take and how much meaningless passing around did we do. Nobody wanted to take responsibility to make something happen.

With top players like Modric and Bale, they demanded the ball all the time and were always available for a pass. We don't have that type of player and top teams sense that, press our defence and we either give away the ball or get caught in possession. Obviously, this happens against poor teams too, you just get punished more by better players.

And also a simple reality that the opposition have much better players who sometimes we don't recognize.

 

[wiziwig]

One theory i have is that we always play attacking football, taking the game to them whilst naively leaving ourselves relatively open at the back, whereas lesser sides adopt a more realistic approach and park the bus, hoping to get something on the break.

This .

Tony Pullis managing Spurs perhaps would do better against the bigger teams , but then we'd have to suffer our opponents having 75% possession. We'd also probably have to suffer more against the lesser sides where our over reliance on counter attacking football would not help us much.

 

[wiziwig]

Interesting tonight, watching Phil Neville and Danny Murphy on the red button on BBC

They say that Everton looked hard at Moutinho and then Spurs did, but he isn't all that good and had a rubbish year at Monaco, even going so far as to say he is a luxury player and not good enough to spend big money on.

I have to agree from what I've seen. Overrated.

 

[wiziwig]

I think we react badly to pressure whether from the opposition or our own fans. Pressure makes even a good player useless and perhaps not having strong players/leaders to get us through the hard times has cost us. Against Liverpool, how many shots did we actually take and how much meaningless passing around did we do. Nobody wanted to take responsibility to make something happen.

With top players like Modric and Bale, they demanded the ball all the time and were always available for a pass. We don't have that type of player and top teams sense that, press our defence and we either give away the ball or get caught in possession. Obviously, this happens against poor teams too, you just get punished more by better players.

And also a simple reality that the opposition have much better players who sometimes we don't recognize.

Good post . For example on Sunday , if we had Sterling and Sturridge, in for say Chadli and Adybayor , still 0-3 ?

 

[harr1984]

Whilst some good and valid points have been made in this thread I do think we are being awfully dismissive of our players' abilities and that of our coach based on that Liverpool game. Poch hasn't had anywhere near long enough to get the players to perform to both the style and standard he wants and I think you will see a big difference in performances between our first and second half of the season. The Liverpool game just came too soon unfortunately, but come the end of the season I dont think we'll be too far behind them....

 

[NWND]

It's a combination of a lot of things mentioned above, but then also pure chance and the freakish nature of the way things pan out.

For example for last seasons 5-0 home reverse against Liverpool, for all we weren't at the races and they ruthlessly exposed that, it really didn't help that our horrific injury problems reduced us to playing midfielders in defence against the league's most dangerous attack.

Football goes in cycles and I think we'll have a better record against the better teams this season. We were already better against Liverpool than both games last season very early on into the new manager's reign.

 

[NWND]

I'd also point out that a lot of the 'tighter' games between top sides are ending up in heavily skewed scorelines these days.

This is because so many top sides these days are coached and drilled to be lethal on the counter-attack. It means even the best teams if they go a goal-down can be ruthlessly exposed as they come out to try and chase the game.

Look at City v Liverpool this season, for example. The game started out as a sparring contest, both teams probing for weakness without making any headway. If anything I thought Liverpool were edging the possession and looking the more likely, but then City made the break-through out of nothing. Liverpool opened up to chase the game and were just brutally punished on the counter and ended up on the end of a hiding in what was up till the first goal a very even game.

Its different when a good side is playing a bad side (for example us in the Europa game last week) as a bad side doesn't come out and chase the game when 1-0 down to a good side, as their remit is damage limitation and that never seems to change, therefore the counter attacking opportunities to really put a side to the sword often only come near the very end of games gainst stubborn, well-organised, poorer teams, that will take being 1 or 2-0 down going into the last 10 minutes before having a last go of things.

 

[wiziwig]

Also against the big boys , we have to take your chances with only their goalkeeper to beat . We had two on Sunday. Immediately after they had scored their first, Ade lobbed over and then Chadli's chance to equalise on the stroke of half time, but his shot was straight at their goalkeeper.

The outcomes of moments like these, change mentalities both positive and negative.

 

[Spur of the moment]

I think we react badly to pressure whether from the opposition or our own fans. Pressure makes even a good player useless and perhaps not having strong players/leaders to get us through the hard times has cost us. Against Liverpool, how many shots did we actually take and how much meaningless passing around did we do. Nobody wanted to take responsibility to make something happen.

With top players like Modric and Bale, they demanded the ball all the time and were always available for a pass. We don't have that type of player and top teams sense that, press our defence and we either give away the ball or get caught in possession. Obviously, this happens against poor teams too, you just get punished more by better players.

And also a simple reality that the opposition have much better players who sometimes we don't recognize.

Although the point of this thread was that we seem more inclined to collapse against the big boys than most, it remains true we cannot hope to match them for sheer quality. Just been doing a bit of checking and found that of players who were rated in the top 50 from the Guardian's World Top 100 last season, City currently have 4, United 4, Chelsea 3, Arsenal 2, Liverpool 1, Tottenham none.

We do have Vertonghen, Paulinho and Lloris, all of whom were just outside the top 50, but would any of them even get near the top 100 right now? Maybe Lloris, but certainly not the other two.



http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...st-footballers-top-100-list-2013-lionel-messi

2013	2012	Name	Position	Club	Nationality	Age at Dec 20 2013
1	1	Lionel Messi	Forward	Barcelona	Argentina	26
2	2	Cristiano Ronaldo	Forward	Real Madrid	Portugal	28
3	5	Zlatan Ibrahimovic	Forward	PSG	Sweden	32
4	28	Franck Ribery	Midfielder	Bayern Munich	France	30
5	4	Andres Iniesta	Midfielder	Barcelona	Spain	29
6	13	Neymar	Forward	Barcelona	Brazil	21
7	40	Gareth Bale	Midfielder	Real Madrid	Wales	24
8	3	Xavi	Midfielder	Barcelona	Spain	33
9	21	Luis Suarez	Forward	Liverpool	Uruguay	26
10	11	Sergio Aguero	Forward	Emirates Marketing Project	Argentina	25
11	7	Robin van Persie	Forward	Manchester Utd	Netherlands	30
12	17	Mesut Ozil	Midfielder	Arsenal	Germany	25
13	10	Edinson Cavani	Forward	Napoli	Uruguay	26
14	66	Arjen Robben	Midfielder/forward	Bayern Munich	Netherlands	29
15	25	Philipp Lahm	Defender	Bayern Munich	Germany	30
16	6	Radamel Falcao	Forward	Atlético Madrid	Colombia	27
17	16	Thiago Silva	Defender	PSG	Brazil	29
18	70	Robert Lewandowski	Forward	Borussia Dortmund	Poland	25
19	9	Yaya Toure	Midfielder	Emirates Marketing Project	Ivory Coast	30
20	19	Bastian Schweinsteiger	Midfielder	Bayern Munich	Germany	29
21	8	Andrea Pirlo	Midfielder	Juventus	Italy	34
22	29	Manuel Neuer	Goalkeeper	Bayern Munich	Germany	27
23	27	Marco Reus	Midfielder/forward	Borussia Dortmund	Germany	24
24	20	Gianluigi Buffon	Goalkeeper	Juventus	Italy	35
25	33	Thomas Muller	Forward	Bayern Munich	Germany	24
26	57	Arturo Vidal	Midfielder	Juventus	Chile	26
27	14	Sergio Busquets	Midfielder	Barcelona	Spain	25
28	31	Wayne Rooney	Forward	Manchester Utd	England	28
29	36	Cesc Fabregas	Midfielder	Barcelona	Spain	26
30	32	Juan Mata	Midfielder	Chelsea	Spain	25
31	NE	Francesco Totti	Forward	Roma	Italy	37
32	18	David Silva	Midfielder	Emirates Marketing Project	Spain	27
33	67	Mario Balotelli	Forward	Milan	Italy	23
34	34	Mario Götze	Midfielder/forward	Borussia Dortmund	Germany	21
35	NE	Diego da Silva Costa	Forward	Atlético Madrid	Brazil	25
36	37	Oscar	Midfielder	Chelsea	Brazil	22
37	15	Xabi Alonso	Midfielder	Real Madrid	Spain	32
38	42	Daniele De Rossi	Midfielder	Roma	Italy	30
39	24	Gerard Pique	Defender	Barcelona	Spain	26
40	53	Toni Kroos	Midfielder	Bayern Munich	Germany	23
41	43	Dani Alves	Defender	Barcelona	Brazil	30
42	23	Vincent Kompany	Defender	Emirates Marketing Project	Belgium	27
43	NE	David Alaba	Defender/Midfielder	Bayern Munich	Austria	21
44	NE	Ilkay Gündogan	Midfielder	Borussia Dortmund	Germany	23
45	22	Sergio Ramos	Defender	Real Madrid	Spain	27
46	48	Carlos Tevez	Forward	Juventus	Argentina	29
47	NE	Thibaut Courtois	Goalkeeper	Atlético Madrid	Belgium	21
48	77	Mario Mandzukic	Forward	Bayern Munich	Croatia	27
49	NE	Aaron Ramsey	Midfielder	Arsenal	Wales	22
50	79	David Luiz	Defender	Chelsea	Brazil	26
51	64	Nemanja Vidic	Defender	Manchester Utd	Serbia	32
52	NE	Axel Witsel	Midfielder	Zenit Saint Petersburg	Belgium	24
53	NE	Dante	Defender	Bayern Munich	Brazil	30
54	NE	Giuseppe Rossi	Forward	Fiorentina	Italy	26
55	35	Karim Benzema	Forward	Real Madrid	France	26
56	NE	Gonzalo Higuain	Striker	Napoli	Argentina	26
57	NE	Jan Vertonghen	Defender	Tottenham Hotspur	Belgium	26
58	97	Marek Hamsik	Midfielder	Napoli	Slovakia	26
59	100	Paulinho	Midfielder	Tottenham Hotspur	Brazil	25
60	51	Marcelo	Defender	Real Madrid	Brazil	25
61	80	Luka Modric	Midfielder	Real Madrid	Croatia	28
62	NE	Kevin Strootman	Midfielder	Roma	Netherlands	23
63	39	Javier Mascherano	Defender/midfielder	Barcelona	Argentina	29
64	NE	Hugo Lloris	Goalkeeper	Tottenham Hotspur	France	26
65	44	Petr Cech	Goalkeeper	Chelsea	Czech Republic	31
66	45	Mats Hummels	Defender	Borussia Dortmund	Germany	25
67	73	Santi Cazorla	Midfielder	Arsenal	Spain	29
68	NE	Keisuke Honda	Midfielder	CSKA Moscow	Japan	27
69	NE	Víctor Valdés	Goalkeeper	Barcelona	Spain	31
70	NE	Arda Turan	Midfielder/Forward	Atlético Madrid	Turkey	26
71	NE	Federico Marchetti	Goalkeeper	Lazio	Italy	30
72	47	Angel Di Maria	Midfielder	Real Madrid	Argentina	25
73	NE	Álvaro Negredo	Forward	Emirates Marketing Project	Spain	28
74	NE	Laurent Koscielny	Defender	Arsenal	France	28
75	NE	Toby Alderweireld	Defender	Atlético Madrid	Belgium	24
76	NE	Marco Verratti	Midfielder	PSG	Italy	21
77	NE	Pablo Zabaleta	Defender	Emirates Marketing Project	Argentina	28
78	NE	Dario Conca	Midfielder	Guangzhou Evergrande	Argentina	30
79	69	Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang	Forward	Borussia Dortmund	Gabon	24
80	NE	Michu	Forward	Swansea City	Spain	27
81	NE	Miralem Pjanic	Midfielder	Roma	Bosnia-Herzegovina	23
82	NE	Samir Handanovic	Goalkeeper	Inter	Slovenia	29
83	54	Samuel Eto’o	Forward	Chelsea	Cameroon	32
84	NE	Juan Zuniga	Defender	Napoli	Colombia	28
85	NE	Lukasz Piszczek	Defender	Borussia Dortmund	Poland	28
86	NE	Marquinhos	Defender	PSG	Brazil	19
87	NE	Mehdi Benatia	Defender	Roma	Morocco	26
88	NE	Frank Lampard	Midfielder	Chelsea	England	35
89	94	Shinji Kagawa	Midfielder	Manchester Utd	Japan	24
90	NE	Koke	Midfielder	Atlético Madrid	Spain	21
91	NE	Yohan Cabaye	Midfielder	Saudi Sportswashing Machine Utd	France	27
92	NE	Lucas Moura	Midfielder	PSG	Brazil	21
93	NE	Blaise Matuidi	Midfielder	PSG	France	26
94	NE	Isco	Midfielder	Real Madrid	Spain	21
95	NE	Alexis Sánchez	Forward	Barcelona	Chile	25
96	NE	Asmir Begovic	Goalkeeper	Stoke City	Bosnia-Herzegovina	26
97	NE	Emmanuel Emenike	Forward	Fenerbahce	Nigeria	26
98	NE	Branislav Ivanovic	Defender	Chelsea	Serbia	29
99	98	Javi Martinez	Defender/midfielder	Bayern Munich	Spain	25
100	58	Eden Hazard	Midfielder	Chelsea	Belgium	22

[h=2]e world's top 100 best footballers 2013[/h] Click heading to sort table. Download this data

 

[NWND]

Also against the big boys , we have to take your chances with only their goalkeeper to beat . We had two on Sunday. Immediately after they had scored their first, Ade lobbed over and then Chadli's chance to equalise on the stroke of half time, but his shot was straight at their goalkeeper.

The outcomes of moments like these, change mentalities both positive and negative.

Well precisely. The outcomes of games between two good sides often hinge on 'moments'.

Two missed chances by us, then the referee's decision to award IMO a pretty soft penalty to them for 2-0. Once it's 2-0 against a side of the quality of Liverpool you are seriously up against it and always likely to conceed more as you have to throw bodies forward. As it was, the mistake for the 3rd was just one of those things again, a catastrophic error brutally punished.

On another day, it could have been different, but it wasn't and we got well beaten fair and square.