Who should we sell?

[Gutter Boy]

Anyone who thinks there will be mass changes ( in and out) are dreaming.

There will be a lot of outs. Our squad is massive.

I'm not expecting more than 3 more incomings though. Alli and Pritchard will already be 2 new faces in the 25.

 

[braineclipse]

The numbers just don't work.

Since he was the great white hope 3 seasons ago, Mason and Bentaleb have come through and Winks and Alli are waiting in the wings, and all seem/are expected to be better than Carroll.

He's been poor at Swansea too tbt

We don't yet know what will happen with Alli this summer, both him and Winks might easily go out on loan.

He's been good enough for Swansea that they wanted to sign him permanently in January going by what looked like solid reports at the time. When we turned them down they signed someone else and haven't prioritized getting Carroll on the pitch much.

Oh sure

Yesterday was the best confirmation of what you are saying...

I know that's sarcasm, but yes - yes it was.

Our 4th choice centre back (Chiriches) obviously needs upgrading on. When players in the front 6 are off form we don't have viable options in the squad or on the bench to replace them that we can expect to make a positive impact.

Most of those players on show against Stoke have shown exactly what they're capable of when on form earlier this season.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Switching this around I think the only players that I would want us to keep are:

Lloris. Selling him just sends out all of the wrong signals again.
Vorm. About the best ‘number 2’ we could hope for really.
Walker. Deserves a chance to properly get over his injury and let us see what he adds to a Pochettino team once he has done that.
Dier. I think he is a decent prospect at centre half, worth keeping and continuing to work on.
Vertonghen. Still our best central defender even if he hasn’t had the best of seasons, needs a top class partner.
Rose. IMO the best left back in the Premier League, has the hardest job in our team having to play behind Chadli, yet still produces.
Bentaleb. Huge amount of potential, I don’t think he is really a ‘holding' player however and feel that he will be better deployed a little further forward in Mason's role.
Mason. Tailed off badly recently but brings energy to the team and is still worth a squad place, if we could get Schneiderlin in, then I think we could push Bentaleb into Mason’s role as our first choice starter.
Ericksen. Our most creative, skilful midfielder who is also prepared to put a shift in.
Kane. Pretty much single handedly turned our season from ‘awful’ to ‘average’.
Pritchard. Deserves a chance to show what he can do after stepping up successfully in both of the last 2 seasons.
Yedlin. We need to see him before we can judge whether good enough or not.
Alli. Same as Pritchard and Yedlin, let's have a look at him.
Worryingly that is just 13 players - and I would only want 7 of them in my first choice starting line-up next year
(Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen, Rose, Bentaleb, Ericksen, Kane) with the others being squad options.

There are then 5 players who I wouldn’t mind keeping at the club for squad positions:
Chadli. Infuriatingly lazy, but does have the quality to turn a game. Perhaps a great option off of the bench if we’re chasing a game.
Dembele. Possibly a little controversial here, but I think our team generally looks better with him in there. Has a bit of presence and can help us get on the ball in the opposition’s half. There are many midfielders that we should be selling before him).
Fazio. Pretty commanding in the air, but too slow and cumbersome to make a top class centre half. Seems to get caught on his heels when defending an early ball into the box as Benteke and Pelle exposed recently).
Lennon. It won’t happen because it seems the bridge has been burnt, but he remains the best wide midfield player at the club. He shouldn’t be sold until we have at least one better option than him.
Lamela. Does a lot of running (although much of this seems a little headless chicken like). Can be creative in the final third, but it’s mixed with an infuriating amount of wasting possession. Horribly one footed and doesn’t seem able to receive the ball on the run. A limited player in terms of technique I think. Worth selling for the ‘right offer’.
Which leaves a HUGE amount of players that we need to be getting rid of:

Friedel. We can’t be taking up an overseas player position with a third choice keeper the wrong side of 40.
Kaboul. Looked about 10% of the player he was a few years ago, slow on the turn and seems to have lost his power in the air. Got bullied by a partnership of Berahino and Sessegnon against West Brom and that said it all.
Chiriches. What a joke of a defender this guy is. Whoever wanted to bring him in needs to be shot.
Capoue. See description of Chiriches above but instead replace ‘defender’ with ‘midfielder’…. The only holding midfielder I have ever seen who disappears when the opposition get the ball.
Davies. Not a bad player but just looks completely unsuited to playing in a Pochettino team. An apparent lack of pace that means he struggles to get on the overlap and is also beaten very easily on the outside by his opponent.
Townsend. Has some good natural attributes, but seems to struggle to apply them.
Stambouli. Mediocrity personified, I don’t think he has a future at Spurs.
Paulinho. Simply not brave enough to play in England. Would probably be a decent player in Italy.
Soldado. Absolutely rubbish, brings nothing to the team, average at everything. I could cry at the fact we spent £26 million on him.
Adebayor. Loads of talent but a huge mental problem stops him applying that talent consistently. Time for somebody else to have those bipolar performances.
Holtby. Seems to have one foot already out of the door with a permanent move back to Germany surely getting confirmed this Summer?
Carrol. Hasn't done too badly at Swansea, although sometimes the game seems to pass him by a bit. My concern with him is that he is one of those players who always seems to take the safe option. He could be kept as ‘squad ballast’ but I think if we want to be becoming a proper challenger for a CL place then we'll need better players.

--------------------------Lloris
Walker------New CB-----------Vertonghen--------Rose
------------New CM---------------Bentaleb
-----New RM----------Ericksen------------New LM
---------------------------Kane

That's four first choice players we need along with another striking option who can adequately replace Kane or even allow him to drop into the number 10 role.

 

[Gutter Boy]

5 changes to our starting 11 will have Poch sacked by Christmas, no matter how good they are. I

t's the lack of stability that always kills us.

 

[braineclipse]

Switching this around I think the only players that I would want us to keep are:

Lloris. Selling him just sends out all of the wrong signals again.
Vorm. About the best ‘number 2’ we could hope for really.
Walker. Deserves a chance to properly get over his injury and let us see what he adds to a Pochettino team once he has done that.
Dier. I think he is a decent prospect at centre half, worth keeping and continuing to work on.
Vertonghen. Still our best central defender even if he hasn’t had the best of seasons, needs a top class partner.
Rose. IMO the best left back in the Premier League, has the hardest job in our team having to play behind Chadli, yet still produces.
Bentaleb. Huge amount of potential, I don’t think he is really a ‘holding' player however and feel that he will be better deployed a little further forward in Mason's role.
Mason. Tailed off badly recently but brings energy to the team and is still worth a squad place, if we could get Schneiderlin in, then I think we could push Bentaleb into Mason’s role as our first choice starter.
Ericksen. Our most creative, skilful midfielder who is also prepared to put a shift in.
Kane. Pretty much single handedly turned our season from ‘awful’ to ‘average’.
Pritchard. Deserves a chance to show what he can do after stepping up successfully in both of the last 2 seasons.
Yedlin. We need to see him before we can judge whether good enough or not.
Alli. Same as Pritchard and Yedlin, let's have a look at him.
Worryingly that is just 13 players - and I would only want 7 of them in my first choice starting line-up next year
(Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen, Rose, Bentaleb, Ericksen, Kane) with the others being squad options.

There are then 5 players who I wouldn’t mind keeping at the club for squad positions:
Chadli. Infuriatingly lazy, but does have the quality to turn a game. Perhaps a great option off of the bench if we’re chasing a game.
Dembele. Possibly a little controversial here, but I think our team generally looks better with him in there. Has a bit of presence and can help us get on the ball in the opposition’s half. There are many midfielders that we should be selling before him).
Fazio. Pretty commanding in the air, but too slow and cumbersome to make a top class centre half. Seems to get caught on his heels when defending an early ball into the box as Benteke and Pelle exposed recently).
Lennon. It won’t happen because it seems the bridge has been burnt, but he remains the best wide midfield player at the club. He shouldn’t be sold until we have at least one better option than him.
Lamela. Does a lot of running (although much of this seems a little headless chicken like). Can be creative in the final third, but it’s mixed with an infuriating amount of wasting possession. Horribly one footed and doesn’t seem able to receive the ball on the run. A limited player in terms of technique I think. Worth selling for the ‘right offer’.
Which leaves a HUGE amount of players that we need to be getting rid of:

Friedel. We can’t be taking up an overseas player position with a third choice keeper the wrong side of 40.
Kaboul. Looked about 10% of the player he was a few years ago, slow on the turn and seems to have lost his power in the air. Got bullied by a partnership of Berahino and Sessegnon against West Brom and that said it all.
Chiriches. What a joke of a defender this guy is. Whoever wanted to bring him in needs to be shot.
Capoue. See description of Chiriches above but instead replace ‘defender’ with ‘midfielder’…. The only holding midfielder I have ever seen who disappears when the opposition get the ball.
Davies. Not a bad player but just looks completely unsuited to playing in a Pochettino team. An apparent lack of pace that means he struggles to get on the overlap and is also beaten very easily on the outside by his opponent.
Townsend. Has some good natural attributes, but seems to struggle to apply them.
Stambouli. Mediocrity personified, I don’t think he has a future at Spurs.
Paulinho. Simply not brave enough to play in England. Would probably be a decent player in Italy.
Soldado. Absolutely rubbish, brings nothing to the team, average at everything. I could cry at the fact we spent £26 million on him.
Adebayor. Loads of talent but a huge mental problem stops him applying that talent consistently. Time for somebody else to have those bipolar performances.
Holtby. Seems to have one foot already out of the door with a permanent move back to Germany surely getting confirmed this Summer?
Carrol. Hasn't done too badly at Swansea, although sometimes the game seems to pass him by a bit. My concern with him is that he is one of those players who always seems to take the safe option. He could be kept as ‘squad ballast’ but I think if we want to be becoming a proper challenger for a CL place then we'll need better players.

--------------------------Lloris
Walker------New CB-----------Vertonghen--------Rose
------------New CM---------------Bentaleb
-----New RM----------Ericksen------------New LM
---------------------------Kane

That's four first choice players we need along with another striking option who can adequately replace Kane or even allow him to drop into the number 10 role.

I agree with most of that. Would move Davies, along with possibly Townsend and Stambouli into the "wouldn't mind keeping" category and Chadli into the "do not want to sell" with Dembele and Lennon moving down the list. But small-ish disagreements at most.

Quite shocking perhaps, but 8-10 outgoings seems about right. Our squad is a bit on the crowded side with youngsters breaking through over the last 18 months and more looking to make the step up.

 

[braineclipse]

5 changes to our starting 11 will have Poch sacked by Christmas, no matter how good they are. I

t's the lack of stability that always kills us.

There are changes and then there are changes. Changes in terms of new players coming in to compete for the position with existing first choice players I think is fine.

We shouldn't look to sell players that are currently first choice though, which I assume is your point?

 

[Finney Is Back]

5 changes to our starting 11 will have Poch sacked by Christmas, no matter how good they are. It's the lack of stability that always kills us.

I didn't advocate 5 changes, I suggested 4.... and I feel that without making those changes to the starting line-up Poch might fail to last even as long as to Christmas! I also disagree that it's the lack of stability that kills us, I'd say that it's the lack of quality, we've had quite a lot of stability in our attacking 6 recently and yet have looked worse and worse in terms of threat to the opposition.

We are shaky in the centre of defence and also desperately lacking leadership in the middle of the park. Bringing the right players into those positions would at least make us harder to beat.

After that we simply HAVE to improve on the the two wide midfield players, as they need to be providing our goal threat. On the right hand side with Lamela we are shocking, I am surprised to see an Argentinian player who is so poor technically. On the left we have a player who is more than good enough technically, but who has such a serious lack of desire that he cannot be accommodated.

Without FAR better options in the wide midfield areas we are over reliant on our full backs making suicidal runs forward to stretch the opposition and the opposition can then exploit that when they turn over the ball by playing long diagonal balls to their wing forward or their centre forward who pulls out wide.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

5 changes to our starting 11 will have Poch sacked by Christmas, no matter how good they are. It's the lack of stability that always kills us.

That's a ridiculous statement dude.

So, on that basis if we signed Ronaldo, Bale, Messi, Modric, Lahm (first top 5 players in the world I could think of) Poch would still get sacked by Christmas.

It's the lack of world class, or decent players in our team that kills us.

 

[Armchair Expert]

IMO opinion IF Holtby to HSV isn't a done deal then he must be moved on. We can probably still get 1.5 - 2.5 million from a German club for him. Its a shame, but he is absolutely atrocious.

 

[Gutter Boy]

That's a ridiculous statement dude.

So, on that basis if we signed Ronaldo, Bale, Messi, Modric, Lahm (first top 5 players in the world I could think of) Poch would still get sacked by Christmas.

It's the lack of world class, or decent players in our team that kills us.

We'd still underperform and he'd be sacked. It happened to AVB and nearly Rodgers this season with their £100m magnificent sevens.

We can't afford to buy players that will instantly improve our starting 11. We've tried that route and it never works. We need to make more signings like Alli and Dier, and grow our next generation of superstars.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

We'd still underperform and he'd be sacked. It happened to AVB and nearly Rodgers this season with their £100m magnificent sevens.

We can't afford to buy players that will instantly improve our starting 11. We've tried that route and it never works. We need to make more signings like Alli and Dier, and grow our next generation of superstars.

Why would we underperform though? Those listed 5 players would automatically improve our team and anyones team. I would even go onto say that we would be going for the league with those 5 players. We would have Lloris in goal and 5 other world class players. You could then have average players like Mason, Bentaleb, and others as they would be carried by world class players.

Liverpools £100m was spent horrendously and you cant put any of their signings in the same brackets as the ones I listed.

Look at City, they threw money at superstars spending billions to get where they are now. I'm not saying we can afford it, but your theory that Poch would get sacked with players "no matter how good they are" just doesn't make sense, that's all I am trying to say. Having those listed players, would get us 2nd or 3rd easily IMO.

You're right though we do need to get players like Alli and Dier on the cheap and find these types of players as we cannot afford to do the City way.

 

[billyiddo]

As with everything Gutterboy says, it's partly true but exaggerated to the point of idiocy.

We've seen first hand how disruptive a high number of first team signings in one window can be, but we aren't shopping at the top end of the market and buying world class players so chances are the players GGG mentions would still be able to maintain a level of performance which would see us through their first season.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We'd still underperform and he'd be sacked. It happened to AVB and nearly Rodgers this season with their £100m magnificent sevens.

We can't afford to buy players that will instantly improve our starting 11. We've tried that route and it never works. We need to make more signings like Alli and Dier, and grow our next generation of superstars.

I disagree 100%.... It's about buying the right type of players. AVB bought in 7 players, but not a single one of those had ever played a minute of premiership football and most of them did not have the right attributes to ever become successful footballers in England.

If we were attempting to bring 4 players into the starting line up then it would make sense for at least 3 of them to already have Premiership experience....

Cabaye, Schneiderlin, Fonte, Alderwierld, Milner, Mirallas, Benteke, are all examples of players that could be signed if a big enough offer was made to the player and their club, all have proven themselves able to play successfully in the Premiership. I'm sure there are numerous other examples out there as well.

 

[SUIYHA]

We need to be taking a couple of "gambles" every season, it's the only way. A £10-15m punt on a young(ish) player, probably from abroad, who big clubs are probably tracking but not bidding on. That's how we got Modric, Bale, Berbatov, Eriksen and Lloris and it's the only way we'll rise up the leagues. Yes, for every Bale we'll get a Dos Santos, for every Modric we'll get a Paulinho, for every Berbatov we'll get a Pavlyuchenko. But if our star summer signings are Stambouli and Fazio, we are never ever going to progress, simple as that. It's quite simply splash out with big money (which we don't have), sign raw players who have the potential to become superstars (which we have done in the past but haven't even tried lately), or stagnate and go backwards.

As far as I'm concerned we need at least three additions to the starting XI (two wide players and a CM), preferably four (unless Vertonghen and Dier can step it up). There will be plenty of game time to blood the youngsters (Alli, Pritchard etc) with cup appearances and substitute appearances in the league. The starting XI is the most important thing though, and following the lead of Chelsea (Courtois, Fabregas, Costa), Arsenal (Sanchez, Wellbeck, Debuchy/Bellerin), I think three/four players added is proven as a more than reasonable strategy.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Why would we underperform though? Those listed 5 players would automatically improve our team and anyones team. I would even go onto say that we would be going for the league with those 5 players. We would have Lloris in goal and 5 other world class players. You could then have average players like Mason, Bentaleb, and others as they would be carried by world class players.

Liverpools £100m was spent horrendously and you cant put any of their signings in the same brackets as the ones I listed.

Look at City, they threw money at superstars spending billions to get where they are now. I'm not saying we can afford it, but your theory that Poch would get sacked with players "no matter how good they are" just doesn't make sense, that's all I am trying to say. Having those listed players, would get us 2nd or 3rd easily IMO.

You're right though we do need to get players like Alli and Dier on the cheap and find these types of players as we cannot afford to do the City way.

It took City a couple of years after they had all their money. The season we pipped them to CL was after the oil money had come in and they'd spent big.

It takes several years to build a side, and new signings only delays that (albeit it good ones can increase the eventual height of the curve when the team eventually peaks).

Successful teams never sign more than 1-3 new players a year.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Cabaye, Schneiderlin, Fonte, Alderwierld, Milner, Mirallas, Benteke, are all examples of players that could be signed if a big enough offer was made to the player and their club, all have proven themselves able to play successfully in the Premiership. I'm sure there are numerous other examples out there as well.

That's not really our market though. With our zero net spend restriction and wages at 65% of turnover limit, we can't pay the EPL premium for mediocre players. Alderweireld is the only name on that list I see value in, but he's not not really in a priority area.

We've got to shop smarter - abroad, lower leagues or players with contract issues - and generally younger than those.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It took City a couple of years after they had all their money. The season we pipped them to CL was after the oil money had come in and they'd spent big.

It takes several years to build a side, and new signings only delays that (albeit it good ones can increase the eventual height of the curve when the team eventually peaks).

Successful teams never sign more than 1-3 new players a year.

Not quite true…..

Emirates Marketing Project finished a lowly 10th in 2008-2009. Then with their new found Oil money wealth they purchased Gareth Barry, Roque Santa Cruz, Carlos Tevez, Emanuel Adebayor, Kolo Toure, Jolean Lescott, Patrich Viera and Adam Johnson. As a result of this they improved their PL finish from 10th the year before to 5th the following season.

City then embarked upon another spending spree in 2010-2011 and purchased Jerome Boatang, Yaya Toure, David Silva, Aleksandar Kolarov, Mario Balotelli, James Milner and Edin Dzeko. They again improved their PL finish that season from 5th to 3rd.

Next came 2011 – 2012 when they signed Stefan Savic, Gael Clichy, Sergio Aguero, Costel Pantilimon, Samir Nasri and Owen Hargreaves. That year they improved their league position from 3rd the previous year to winning the title.

If we look at probably the most successful English team of the last few years (Chelsea) they signed:
7 players this season.
13 players last season.
8 players the season before
10 players the season before.

So an average of almost 10 players per season.

 

[Raziel]

I would argue that City has consistently underperformed for the quality of their squad, but that is a completely separate conversation (mercenaries at a club with no history)

The Ronaldo, Bale, Messi, etc .. argument is just stupid, those are 5 players that are a level above everyone and win games on their own, whoever we buy will not likely be in that bracket, far less 5 players in that bracket.

To me, we need squad depth, more that 1st team changes.

Lloris, Walker, Vert, Rose, Bentaleb, Eriksen, Chadli, Kane are probably all 1st team starters next season, so that leaves 3 starting spots to compete for (CB, CM, RW), which I think is about correct.

Add in Alli, Pritchard and probably 2-3 other youth/academy players, we should have some additional options available

 

[Finney Is Back]

I would argue that City has consistently underperformed for the quality of their squad, but that is a completely separate conversation (mercenaries at a club with no history)

The Ronaldo, Bale, Messi, etc .. argument is just stupid, those are 5 players that are a level above everyone and win games on their own, whoever we buy will not likely be in that bracket, far less 5 players in that bracket.

To me, we need squad depth, more that 1st team changes.

Lloris, Walker, Vert, Rose, Bentaleb, Eriksen, Chadli, Kane are probably all 1st team starters next season, so that leaves 3 starting spots to compete for (CB, CM, RW), which I think is about correct.

Add in Alli, Pritchard and probably 2-3 other youth/academy players, we should have some additional options available

I'm with you on most points, although I think if we're seeing Chadli as a first choice starter next season then we're aiming too low. I also think that looking to add only squad depth is a massive mistake. The squad depth should come from our current weaker first choice players being replaced by better options.

I think from the above you see how key those CB, CM, RW signings are (and I would add LW as well).... as I think it is asking a huge amount to expect Alli, Pritchard and a couple of youth/academy players (probably Fredericks, Velkojvic and perhaps Winks) to step up and be good enough to make a difference at PL level. By making proper first choice signings in the CB, CM, RW and LW positions you suddenly are using Dier/Fazio, Mason, Lamela/Townsend, Chadli as the squad depth players.

 

[billyiddo]

I'm with you on most points, although I think if we're seeing Chadli as a first choice starter next season then we're aiming too low. I also think that looking to add only squad depth is a massive mistake. The squad depth should come from our current weaker first choice players being replaced by better options.

I think from the above you see how key those CB, CM, RW signings are (and I would add LW as well).... as I think it is asking a huge amount to expect Alli, Pritchard and a couple of youth/academy players (probably Fredericks, Velkojvic and perhaps Winks) to step up and be good enough to make a difference at PL level. By making proper first choice signings in the CB, CM, RW and LW positions you suddenly are using Dier/Fazio, Mason, Lamela/Townsend, Chadli as the squad depth players.

I don't think he means Alli/Pritchard fill the first team void in the CM RW positions, just that they will be squad options along with the players who are replaced with new signings.