Toby Alderweireld

[StephenH]

Contracts are not irrelevant. They are legally binding, and mean the club actually does have power in this situation - despite what Sky and the general consensus would have you believe.

All Im saying is that it is important to reinforce that at times. We should not be recognised as a club where you can turn up with some cash and walk away with whoever you like.

Mahrez proves you can! Forget contracts the are largely irrelevant if a player wants a move.
Even if you have loads of money like Chelsea, who could still lose Hazard and they have allegedly offered £300k pw because Real will offer more.
We can’t play or win that game!

It’s why Levy has my administration because of the terrible environment he operates in.

It’s very difficult for us until we have more financial muscle. Then we can offer Toby and the like what they are looking for.

 

[milo]

Based on how Sanchez has performed in Manchester, one could argue that Arsenal did far the better deal!

Sanchez has been off form for a while Mikhytaran is a one game in ten player

 

[BrainOfLevy]

They could use a 4th CB - doesn't mean that Toby will be that 4th CB. He could be first-choice, too. All depends on how things go, and that's ignoring the fact that Bayern and PSG (two of the four) actually do need starting CBs.



So, you agree - in the end, whichever player decides to agitate for a move will be dropped, and then the narrative will become 'that player is no longer one of our best, we're better without him, we're not like Arsenal, really guv'nor'.

Possibly Eriksen, next year. Possibly Alli, two years from now. And so on, and so forth. And one day ,we will look back, realize that we have become just like Arsenal, selling all our players to the clubs around us and rationalizing it as necessary (only without the trophies to show for it). And at least Arsenal cited financial necessity as a reason for folding like a pack of cards in front of their rivals - we're apparently considering using the 'harmony and standards' justification. It amounts to the same thing, in the end.



'We have ambition' and 'we have our place in the food chain' cancel each other out. If we have ambition, we do not respect our 'place' in the food chain so generously afforded to us by those above us - if we have our comfortable place in the food chain, then we are implicitly accepting that those above us will stay above us forevermore.

I believe telling United to include Martial or f*ck off is the only acceptable outcome here. Anything else is us capitulating to our 'place in the food chain' - nothing else, no matter how it's spun.



Eh? So, if Toby was this disruptive black sheep, pulling fire alarms, spitting in Poch's food and being generally disruptive as a 'bad apple', then it would have been in evidence all last season after the contract brouhaha. And yet, I don't think it was.

Modric was denied his apparent 'dream' move, and caused far more of an outcry about it than Toby has so far. The window shut, he buttoned down and became our best player again pretty much straight away. And, in the end, he got his move - abroad, to Madrid, and we weren't hurt by that.

I don't think there's much in this idea that our squad are all some precious babies that need to be protected from any hint of unhappiness or displeasure with an existing situation. They will keep competing regardless of what Toby does, because *they* want to play, not Toby - and Poch demands that if you want to play. Toby being grumpy won't change that.

I’m just going to reply to the bad Apple point, because I think everything else is not worth debating with you...we can show ambition but without different financial constraints we have to have a strategy to make the best use of our strengths. That is harmony and standards, cohesion and everything else that comes with that. Just demanding that we improve, demanding that we don’t sell, demanding that we spend money, show ambition or whatever else, I think you just need to think through the implications of what you are saying. What are the drawbacks to keeping Toby? What are the drawbacks to spending more money on players earlier on? Who exactly should we have signed by now? What reasons might there be for not signing players so far, or not having moved players on? Think these things through and realise that the Chairman you are accusing of a lack of ambition has dragged this club from laughing stock to one of the most consistent teams in the country, and trust him. Or not, I don’t really care. But just know that it takes time. Other clubs have clever people too. Other clubs have money. Players have their own minds. Regulations like transfer windows and everything else all play a part. It isn’t as simple as demanding ambition, clicking fingers and hey presto, it’s happened. We are probably the most consistently over performing team based on our constraints. There are reasons for that.

On the standards and cohesion point, Toby was on the bench last season, so every game that goes by that he is on the bench for, is a reminder to the squad about what those standards should be. We won’t go another year like that though. Secondly, Modric played in the Harry regime, where harmony, standards and cohesion were not part of our strategic advantages that we were using to punch above our weight.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

So what? What is the point of even competing in the damn Premier League, then, if that is our excuse for everything that ever happens to us?

Sorry, mate, I'm just tinkled off. But at some point, this hand-wringing has to end, imo.

We have to be smart and be patient. Building a stadium wasn’t an instant win, it wasn’t a short term thing, but it’s sure as fudge going to be something that enables us to close the gap. It’s definite ambition.

All of the things Levy has done, are to set us up for long term success. Yes, I’m sure if we wanted to take bigger risks, we may have been able to win a title or a trophy in the odd season over the last decade, but probably see ourselves hopping between mid table and then struggling to get back in. But he’s made his choice - long term progression, so that one day we arrive in a place where we have just as many advantages and just as few constraints as everyone else. But that takes time. It’s not all about trying to win the league this coming season, as heretic as that sounds. Because going all out one year may mean less likelihood of upward mobility in the subsequent 3-5.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I’m just going to reply to the bad Apple point, because I think everything else is not worth debating with you

Likewise, I will mention only this, because the other stuff isn't worth debating with you either.

I assure you, have thought long and hard about my beliefs - your condescension is unnecessary, and ill-thought out. Believing that the only implications to keeping Toby are the ones you can see (which appear be entirely negative) is sorely misguided. Likewise, believing that the drawbacks of spending money earlier in the window outweigh the positives is putting you in direct opposition to most of those 'other clubs' and 'clever people' in the market, who seem to operate on different rules to the ones our own Daniel lives by. Believing that there are no signings that we could have made by now that would fit within our budget and our constraints is similarly your shortcoming, not the shortcoming of those who see possibilities more broadly. Likewise, the reasons for our utter inactivity this summer are only sound in *your* view, not in the view of others who have judged them against the possibilities and found them insufficient.

Your mistake is in assuming that your positions are thought through, while those in opposition to your positions aren't. I don't assume that of you - I merely think you haven't assessed your own positions as thoroughly as you advise others to do.

 

[DubaiSpur]

We have to be smart and be patient. Building a stadium wasn’t an instant win, it wasn’t a short term thing, but it’s sure as fudge going to be something that enables us to close the gap. It’s definite ambition.

All of the things Levy has done, are to set us up for long term success. Yes, I’m sure if we wanted to take bigger risks, we may have been able to win a title or a trophy in the odd season over the last decade, but probably see ourselves hopping between mid table and then struggling to get back in. But he’s made his choice - long term progression, so that one day we arrive in a place where we have just as many advantages and just as few constraints as everyone else. But that takes time. It’s not all about trying to win the league this coming season, as heretic as that sounds. Because going all out one year may mean less likelihood of upward mobility in the subsequent 3-5.

Upward mobility *where*? This is a shibboleth, and a meaningless one at that. We have built an expensive stadium, but apparently want to follow to a tee Arsenal's model of post-stadium operations, which has gotten them three FA Cups and nought else in 12 years post-stadium. Indeed, they've even fallen out of their Champions League spot.

Your time scale holds that being like Arsenal now will lead to success in 3-5 years - they have been at it for *twelve years*, and have seen precious little to justify it. And note, they started from a higher base than we did - we have won nothing whatsoever for ten years, and have not won the FA Cup for 27 years. To believe that this 'long-term' plan will bear results different to Arsenal's while seemingly following the same methods is foolhardy.

We will have success, if we act differently and learn from the past. Doing this...selling our best players to our direct rivals while getting nothing of value in return...will be doing what Arsenal did. And it is likely at the least that it will have the same results.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Mahrez proves you can! Forget contracts the are largely irrelevant if a player wants a move.
Even if you have loads of money like Chelsea, who could still lose Hazard and they have allegedly offered £300k pw because Real will offer more.
We can’t play or win that game!

It’s why Levy has my administration because of the terrible environment he operates in.

It’s very difficult for us until we have more financial muscle. Then we can offer Toby and the like what they are looking for.

You dont just forget a contract, that is the point of it being brought up.

Alderweireld is contracted for another season (+ the option to extend). It is then up to us, not him, if we choose to let him move.

Which is the entire point.

He can kick up a fuss, sulk, strike - whatever. He actually holds no power.

And while we arent the richest club out there, we can very much refuse the £50m or whatever is offered for him, because we arent poor either.

And we may well see more value in the statement made than the sale.

Man U can offer him £1m a week, it changes nothing.

Because of that contract you want to forget.

Now. Im not saying money doesnt talk, or that Levy wont want to cash in, or any of it. What I am saying is that it will do us good to every now and then say no. Make sure people know they dont just get what they want. Know that we dont sell as soon as the £££ are flashed at us and our players.

As an aside, given how competitive we now are with the like of Utd on the field - we also need to start saying "no" strategically. We shouldnt strengthen them, unless - as seems like now - we get to weaken them/strengthen ourselves in return.

 

[billyiddo]

^ Id say we can strengthen ourselves with the transfer fee being offered

If that allows us to complete, for arguments sake, Kovacic and Zaha before the window closes rather than lesser options then we're in a stronger position than if were we to keep him and not secure them

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Position of strength? Between us and Utd its a deadlock, it seems, so neither has the upper hand. In Levys shoes though I would be confident in Mourinho having a tantrum and Woodward just paying up.

Almost right on que:
MOURINHO WARNS OF DIFFICULT SEASON

Jose Mourinho fears Manchester United are in for a "difficult season" if he is unable to add to his squad before Thursday's deadline.

"My CEO knows what I want for quite a long time," he told MUTV. "He knows what I want, I know that he tries to do the best for me and I still have a few days to wait what is going to happen.

"The other clubs who compete with us are really strong and have fantastic squads, like Chelsea, Tottenham or Emirates Marketing Project, or they are investing massively like Liverpool, that are buying everything and everybody.

"And if we don't make our team better it will be a difficult season for us."

 

[StephenH]

We roostered up on the £24m release clause in Toby’s case.
Because of it we needed to pay what he wanted or lose the balance from selling £24m or release on a free. Neither would ever happen under Levy

Sadly a rock and a hard place.
Release clause was far too low!

Would be £120m now.
Then we can play properly! Doing exactly what you suggest and tell ManU to get stuffed or pay £120m or whatever!
At £24m we are buggered

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

At the time it was good money, goes to show just how fast the market has got this fudged up.

And, honestly, if he got his head down and played well this season I would prefer to keep him and lose him next summer for £25m than sell him now for £50m

 

[Cochise]

On a side note, anyone know what he's done to supposedly burn all his bridges here?

 

[thfcsteff]

...Possibly Eriksen, next year. Possibly Alli, two years from now. And so on, and so forth. And one day ,we will look back, realize that we have become just like Arsenal, selling all our players to the clubs around us and rationalizing it as necessary (only without the trophies to show for it). And at least Arsenal cited financial necessity as a reason for folding like a pack of cards in front of their rivals - we're apparently considering using the 'harmony and standards' justification. It amounts to the same thing, in the end...

Mate,

Don't go down the dark rabbit hole.
Save that energy for more positive actions.
I hear we will announce Dele, Eriksen and Jan extensions very very soon. And let's wait until post-Thursday deadline before getting too dark. Things will happen IMV. Mina is on the verge of joining Everton. Boateng looks like a genuine target for Man U. Things are going to start moving g very fast if those deals happen IMO.

 

[milo]

Almost right on que:
MOURINHO WARNS OF DIFFICULT SEASON

Jose Mourinho fears Manchester United are in for a "difficult season" if he is unable to add to his squad before Thursday's deadline.

"My CEO knows what I want for quite a long time," he told MUTV. "He knows what I want, I know that he tries to do the best for me and I still have a few days to wait what is going to happen.

"The other clubs who compete with us are really strong and have fantastic squads, like Chelsea, Tottenham or Emirates Marketing Project, or they are investing massively like Liverpool, that are buying everything and everybody.

"And if we don't make our team better it will be a difficult season for us."

He's just getting his excuses in. We all know that he will not last the season at United. He is just hanging in for the massive payoff.

 

[milo]

On a side note, anyone know what he's done to supposedly burn all his bridges here?

Disagreed with Poch over whether he was ready to return.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Saw number of pages, thought something was happening.
Read pages, bunch of whining maggots.

 

[milo]

@LemonadeMoney - you're going to be up all night if you are going to post that in every thread where people have been having the same moan about the transfer window.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Likewise, I will mention only this, because the other stuff isn't worth debating with you either.

I assure you, have thought long and hard about my beliefs - your condescension is unnecessary, and ill-thought out. Believing that the only implications to keeping Toby are the ones you can see (which appear be entirely negative) is sorely misguided. Likewise, believing that the drawbacks of spending money earlier in the window outweigh the positives is putting you in direct opposition to most of those 'other clubs' and 'clever people' in the market, who seem to operate on different rules to the ones our own Daniel lives by. Believing that there are no signings that we could have made by now that would fit within our budget and our constraints is similarly your shortcoming, not the shortcoming of those who see possibilities more broadly. Likewise, the reasons for our utter inactivity this summer are only sound in *your* view, not in the view of others who have judged them against the possibilities and found them insufficient.

Your mistake is in assuming that your positions are thought through, while those in opposition to your positions aren't. I don't assume that of you - I merely think you haven't assessed your own positions as thoroughly as you advise others to do.

Ehhhh, I don’t even know what you are saying here. Could we have spent money on players earlier in the window, that we could have afforded? Yes. Are they the players the manager wanted? Are they going to block space for a better player that might become available later once other moves have been made through other clubs? Also maybe yes. We keep Toby - good that we have depth at CB. Bad that we have allowed someone to disrespect our club, when standards have been raised and are important to maintain, and we now keep him in and around the club. Maybe it’s fine, maybe like with VVD at Southampton it casts a negative shadow and we perform below potential as a result.

I’m not assuming my thoughts are right, I’m saying I can see the implications of the decisions made by people I trust, Poch and Levy, because since they’ve been at the helm we’ve seen consistent improvement. I trust their decision making, I believe they are doing everything they can to keep us on an improving path and that they are making decisions that will give us the best chance of doing that. It’s about trust. Of course different decisions can be made. Those decisions will lead to different advantages and disadvantages, but I believe in the path we have been set on, and I believe they deserve more faith. We are going for long term, consistent progression, and it requires patience.

Frankly, we may not win the League until ENIC sell and we get a Sugar Daddy in, removing the financial constraints that we impose on ourselves to ensure long term progression because we can start making some short term bets for more instant gratification. And I’m ok with that. I absolutely don’t want Levy to bet consistent progression for one season of glory. I want consistent seasons of glory and am willing to wait to get there, as long as we show we keep improving year over year. Or, maybe it takes 3-5 years to move us from a 3rd/4th places team to one that is a genuine challenger even with Levy at the helm. Again, I’m ok with it.

I just have a problem with your bluster, and assertions that Levy is holding us back or showing a lack of ambition. I think the notion is laughable frankly. I can see why we makes the decisions that he makes. Whether you like it or not there is method. And that has been born out by consistent improvement year over year.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I wouldn’t sell him to City, as they are iffy at cb and that might be how we overhaul them this season.

United/Chelsea/arsenal, so what, they are so far behind us he wouldn’t make much difference.

Ideally he’ll sign a new contract and be an asset for us but we have been fine without him for extended periods over the last two seasons.

Very strange comment given how United finished above us last season and took care of us with relative ease in the FA cup semi final. They were never in any danger of conceding against us after they took the lead.

Chelsea have a history of doing very well and winning titles whenever they bring in a new manager, see Mourinho, Ancelotti and Conte.

Arsenal I will give you but even they should be stronger this season plus the toxic atmosphere from the final days of Wenger will be gone.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re Toby, I accepted that he was gone months ago. But I'd only do this deal with United if we get Martial in return. Otherwise, I'd be happy to keep him for another year and roll the dice next summer.

If Toby goes (which looks likely) and we sign this guy De Ligt from Ajax, is anyone else not slightly concerened that we only have essentially 1 CB with more than a year's PL experience? Don't get me wrong I like Sanchez and think he should improve but he's only 22 and is far from a sure thing. If Vertonghen gets injured we are well and truly fudged in terms of putting out CB's with long term experience. I think we need an experienced CB to replace Toby, not sure an unproven 18 year old is the answer.