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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

harr1984 said:
I get it, but it's natural for comparisons with previous managers especially when things are going badly.

It's the same on every clubs forum. The West Ham one still go on about how getting rid of Moyes was a mistake a la Poch, how Lopetegui/Potter shouldn't have been sacked and would be doing better than Nuno etc

Unfortunately until a manager is successful we will always see this subject crop up (and probably to a lesser extent even when we are doing well :D).....
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Yeh maybe, but it seems a more weaponised argument than reflection, buy maybe you are right
 
SpurMeUp said:
Funny how those who dislike Frank most correlate with those who didn’t want Ange sacked. It is so black and white.

We’ll never know if Frank might have done better with a unified fanbase actually supporting him and the side. Injuries are undoubtedly the biggest thorn in the side. But maybe the negativity from those who didn’t want Ange sacked had an impact? If placebos and double blinds are proven to have an effect, maybe the negativity from these supporters has also had an effect? Who knows.
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We're all irrational, both as football fans and human beings. That will include people more supportive of Ange and more critical of him.

But if support for Frank comes down to not enough backing from the fans that liked Ange, or that our league results are somewhat improved from the league results last season where those results got Ange sacked despite winning the EL and our first trophy in 17 years then that's imo the slimmest of slim arguments.
 
harr1984 said:
Top post. This whole thing about those who liked Ange have it in for Frank are talking nonsense. I don't mind admitting my preference was for Ange to be given this season to see if he could build on the trophy win and if he had learnt about handling injuries better etc But when he was sacked I accepted the argument that league results were just not good enough. I never wanted Frank, he didn't inspire me that after winning a European trophy and get Champions League football the solution to kick on would be to employ a guy who IMO played uninspiring football and had never managed in Europe in his life. But there were many who gave good arguments about why he would work, so I was open to see it - Any manager or player who comes here will always get my support to begin with and I'd like to think I give them a fair opportunity to prove me right or wrong.

But as the weeks gone on it just felt like there was literally no evident attacking plan - It's been done to death a million times but even to this day I have no idea what we work on in training in an attacking sense, and the even sadder part for me is that the defending is no better. We all agree we need some better players to be where we believe we should be challenging, but I question anyone's sanity who thinks this group can't perform better and more cohesively than have been week in week out.

And this idea that we've lost x number of goals and assists with Son, Maddison, Kulu and whoever else - well yeah, that's because of the way Ange had us attacking. Son was past his best last season but still got some half decent numbers because of how we setup. There is no chance he would get anywhere near those numbers in this team and setup - He's not a centre forward, do you think he's going to get a load of goals from these balls we just keep chucking in the box? And with the instructions our wide players have, he wouldn't produce much at all as he's lost his pace. Same with Madders and Kulu, at best we would be getting a slightly less brickier version of what we have been seeing - they would not be getting the numbers they did last season.

Most fans have been reasonable, for season one just wanting to see something they can get behind and at the very least I was hoping he'd be given the season. But Frank has failed here, and worryingly it only getting worse and he's lost the fans meaning I can't see anyway back for him. And let's be clear, he's far from the only problem here, and he will go on to prove he's a good manager at a different place but hes not the answer for this club.....
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But we’re seeing Tel and Odo get in good situations and unable to execute.

Yesterday, the double miss hit early was tragic. A couple were they cut inside and fluffed. Son regularly cut in and bet shots in the corner which were goals of his own making. These guys hit it closer to the corner flag. Not one ‘great’ goal amongst them all season.

They’re not good enough. They’re not a patch on the Madders and Son etc.

Ps. We gave up in the league at the halfway mark last season. There wasn’t much attacking and goalscoring.
 
I think he will be gone soon which is sad but yesterday was a major turning point imho. That team put out yesterday was more than decent enough to beat Wham and he had a week to prepare. I do think he is a decent manager and better than he has shown but it's just not worked out for him. We cannot allow ourselves to be sucked into a relegation fight the way we are playing at the moment.
 
Robspur12 said:
I think he will be gone soon which is sad but yesterday was a major turning point imho. That team put out yesterday was more than decent enough to beat Wham and he had a week to prepare. I do think he is a decent manager and better than he has shown but it's just not worked out for him. We cannot allow ourselves to be sucked into a relegation fight the way we are playing at the moment.
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I'm with you. I think people like me felt releasing Ange was a relatively straightforward decision in the end. As a "big" club we understood that we needed the next level manager. Now we're perhaps finding out that Frank isn't able to operate at that level either. For me, replacing Frank doesn't in any way mean got the Ange removal wrong. It just endorses a long term narrative that we are poor at hiring the right managers in the first place.

The big question will probably become whether we are now capable of doing that with this new leadership team. If we did, then it should be no different from scouting players. If we want entertaining, possession based, high intensity football in a back four system then go find that man. It doesn't mean they need to be high profile or highly decorated. It just means we match the club philosophy to the manager appointment and improve our chances of things clicking.
 
Muttley said:
I'm with you. I think people like me felt releasing Ange was a relatively straightforward decision in the end. As a "big" club we understood that we needed the next level manager. Now we're perhaps finding out that Frank isn't able to operate at that level either. For me, replacing Frank doesn't in any way mean got the Ange removal wrong. It just endorses a long term narrative that we are poor at hiring the right managers in the first place.

The big question will probably become whether we are now capable of doing that with this new leadership team. If we did, then it should be no different from scouting players. If we want entertaining, possession based, high intensity football in a back four system then go find that man. It doesn't mean they need to be high profile or highly decorated. It just means we match the club philosophy to the manager appointment and improve our chances of things clicking.
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Funnily enough I think there's a slight bit more chance that the next appointment might be a decent now that the chief chef in charge has changed.

Vinai may have fresh thinking and clean eyes and maybe a better understanding of coaching philosophies that means that he might actually hire an appropriate coach for us and our standing. I don't really expect that to happen, but hey it's the hope they say that kills you.
 
Bishop said:
Funnily enough I think there's a slight bit more chance that the next appointment might be a decent now that the chief chef in charge has changed.

Vinai may have fresh thinking and clean eyes and maybe a better understanding of coaching philosophies that means that he might actually hire an appropriate coach for us and our standing. I don't really expect that to happen, but hey it's the hope they say that kills you.
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Vinai had a massive say in Frank as did Lange.........Levy ratified their preference
 
Benny_Lad said:
But we’re seeing Tel and Odo get in good situations and unable to execute.

Yesterday, the double miss hit early was tragic. A couple were they cut inside and fluffed. Son regularly cut in and bet shots in the corner which were goals of his own making. These guys hit it closer to the corner flag. Not one ‘great’ goal amongst them all season.

They’re not good enough. They’re not a patch on the Madders and Son etc.

Ps. We gave up in the league at the halfway mark last season. There wasn’t much attacking and goalscoring.
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go further back and the real issue is who thought these guys were good enough
the young ones - that's supposed to be lange's strength.... and villa fans say they don't miss him at all
 
metalgear said:
go further back and the real issue is who thought these guys were good enough
the young ones - that's supposed to be lange's strength.... and villa fans say they don't miss him at all
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We have done it for ages now, bad money on bad money spent on doubling down on players who are but can't make the next level. We did for year at RB, massive money relative to their ability on Aurier, Royal, then trying cheaper with the Wolves fella, Porro for 50m who everyone knows is a WB not a RB, people on here convinced Spence is ample LB cover etc. Son to Tel and Odobert making him up in the average when neither have had a season of regular G/A is asking too much of any manager, thats not a defence of Frank thats just a reality, its like a sh1t version of Moneyball but where the maths and stats don't make sense.

We are stock piling CM's without any real rhyme of reason for it, all these 30/40/50m on players just to aimlessly seem to throw darts at a board ontop of the young lads who we bring in who now have less of a route or development path.

Richy and Solanke for a combined 120m or so, based on Solanke having one good goalscoring season, to replace the greatest goal scorer still playing in the world, I mean he is hard to replace but my GHod you at least try. We signed Vicario as the cheaper alternative to Raya and it shows, Kinsky is asking too much of as seen last season, he just appears a younger version

I think people are in all sorts of delusion about this squad, thats not a defence of Frank, it should be better than he is doing, but I am not having it that they are the levels some make out. The way some talk about tactics and influence on making them better, without any history of them even being that good is like me claiming a good manager would have made Jason Dozzell a 25 goal a year striker

Its a sad view maybe, but there isn't one player in the side that has the quality, under this or the last manager where I think "I will take a punt and pay to watch Spurs today" Thats not being OTT, just that if anyone in this side got sold tomorrow be it MVDV, Romero etc, I wouldn't lose sleep.
 
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No point removing frank now unless we have a proper replacement lined up. Working under an interim won’t help us, and if Mason comes in might as well give up now.

Maybe with Xabi and Xavi available it could work, but otherwise stick imo
 
What a brick situation. We are on the cusp of a key game, the manager is wobbling and most of the midfield is injured.

Who the hell would want to take this forward in the short term?
 
demotw said:
No point removing frank now unless we have a proper replacement lined up. Working under an interim won’t help us, and if Mason comes in might as well give up now.

Maybe with Xabi and Xavi available it could work, but otherwise stick imo
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Mason improved things after Mourinho and Conte. Cheered everyone up. Unscrambled the brains and the duff tactics. Got passing and moving going again. It's a better run up to a permanent manager taking over in the summer, than continuing spiralling in a doom loop
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
Exactly, Levy isn’t putting the list together himself is he! The “football people” Paratici / Lange are creating the shortlist and advising who it should be.
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Levy hired the "football people". It all still intimately lands at his feet. If you hire good people you'll get the credit, if you hire poorly you should also get the scorn.
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
Lange said it firstly but secondly not to go all ITK, there is someone I trust who said he was Lange first pick.
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Cool, ultimately Lange was Levy's pick. So it really doesn't make any difference to me who picked Frank specifically. The structure that Levy implemented hired him, so I fail to understand how people (not saying you) can cry for Levy when it was Levy's process that created this situation and hired this coach.
 
Bishop said:
Cool, ultimately Lange was Levy's pick. So it really doesn't make any difference to me who picked Frank specifically. The structure that Levy implemented hired him, so I fail to understand how people (not saying you) can cry for Levy when it was Levy's process that created this situation and hired this coach.
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No I agree, but they ultimately are there to do a job, Levy isn't here anymore so any legacy could easily be undone by sacking him? They aren't for a reason thus far and its not Levy

For all Levy mistakes he would have identified Frank as one of his and got rid by now.........
 
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