Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Finney Is Back]

You can say this until you are blue in the face it won't matter. There is a strong correlation between those who felt that Ange should have been given more time and those who are now criticising TF most strongly. It's not everyone in that group of course.

I keep reading that the squad is better than last season and that just makes me shake my head in disbelief. It would be if Deki, Madders and Solanke were starting regularly alongside those brought in. But the long term injuries might as well have been transferred out of the club. It's been the same effect so far this season. I can't understand why that is not obvious.

You can see the nervousness in the players manifesting itself in so many individual mistakes that are costing us goals. And when these are punished the players naturally become more risk averse. It's so predictable, and I don't think we are currently executing TF's preferred style. I think there are deeper reasons for the way we are playing. And the more players are booed the more nervous they will be in possession, especially at home. This is a manager that has developed so many attack minded players, players who were then sold for big fees to other clubs.

TF will take responsibility for our results. But I am sure, as well as managing our injuries pretty well, he is also trying to build the confidence of players.

I am confident TF will get this right. But he needs time. We change managers now and the new manager has exactly the same issues to resolve. Just my opinion of course.

The squad is better this season. As well as having additional players, our young players are also a season older and more experienced. We also had a huge number of injuries last season but that was always discounted or, worse still, blamed on the manager.

Several people on here were quite adamant that we had a top 6 (or even top 4) squad last season and the single problem we had was the manager. Naturally that is now being shown up for what a false narrative that was.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah, we got a massive bonus from Ange's time here in winning that EL last season. Not only did it get the 17-year trophy monkey off our backs, it gave us CL football (the semi-holy grail).

I thought it right that the club terminate Ange's contract but also that it was right he got to bask in that glory for a few weeks (i would even have been happy if a permanent memorial of some kind was granted in or near the stadium to celebrate his achievement).
But does any club who has qualified for the CL replace Ange with a Thomas Frank, a guy who is well regarded in coaching circles but who had zero experience of managing: a) a club of our size b) a team in Europe let alone the pinnacle of European competition?

It says that actually we are not an attractive prospect for the level of coaches who would be used to managing in multiple competitions and not afforded the luxury of throwing games to play kids etc.
It also says that when we were really in the muck last winter that the club wanted to hire a safe pair of hands who could just concentrate on being 'solid' in the PL. Its almost like it might have been better for Frank that we didn't actually win the EL. I'm sure Frank is Lange's hire and not Fab's.

At this time it might be important to just ride out this season. The club hierarchy got themselves into this situation (e.g., Ange finished 5th just outside the top 4 and showed their ambition in the summer that followed by only buying one player who would be expected to go straight into the first team and have continued to neglect buying left-sided defenders) and they probably know they have to ride it out if only to at least get back a reputation amongst coaches that they do 'back their coaches' and 'give their coaches time'...

With Paratici looking like he's leaving, like you i'm not expecting any signings to help kick us on. No excuses post January if we are still lingering in 14th/15th, at that point that will purely be a reflection of Frank's weaknesses imo

Frank was highlight regarded in the game
I get why and I backed it
I had reservations about the football but he did have decent footy when he got them promoted as runners up in the championship, so over a full season of hard football
But Brentford’s football was always questionable. People will quote numbers to show improvements but we all know the league table is the measure
And on that front (I didn’t know this)
They have not actually progressed as his time has gone on there (I posted their positions a few days ago) and it’s fair question then imo to ask how much of the progress people think they saw was real. I would have guessed that year on year they got better
But they did sell so many players under his watch, and replace them. Hard to know exactly how much involvement he had in that too. We do know that he is very very unlikely to have managed players who have the “arrogance” of players we have and that takes time.
That was the biggest gamble and something that so far looks something he can’t do.
The left side thing is just dumb dumb dumb and it’s why I’m not keen on the DOFs if they can’t see it. Frank IMO,like Ange before needed balance in the squad and getting lucky with Spence is just that. For me it shows tinkle poor planning still

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The squad is better this season. As well as having additional players, our young players are also a season older and more experienced. We also had a huge number of injuries last season but that was always discounted or, worse still, blamed on the manager.

Several people on here were quite adamant that we had a top 6 (or even top 4) squad last season and the single problem we had was the manager. Naturally that is now being shown up for what a false narrative that was.

So did the pundits who have now flipped. I know because I checked through comments
Maybe they are brick or maybe, just maybe they aren’t motivated because they are lost souls on ghost ship wondering how long do they suffer for
And they are guilty too. Some of the stupidity we have seen is a trait that’s not new here
Worryingly though the mistakes don’t get punished because there isn’t a plan to swap out a player who has cost us

 

[Gutter Boy]

The squad is better this season. As well as having additional players, our young players are also a season older and more experienced. We also had a huge number of injuries last season but that was always discounted or, worse still, blamed on the manager.

Several people on here were quite adamant that we had a top 6 (or even top 4) squad last season and the single problem we had was the manager. Naturally that is now being shown up for what a false narrative that was.

Or we've just still got a manager problem?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I believe the appeal of f ya BM was his ability to adapt to the hand he has… work out a way to get some results with the limitations of his squad and circumstances
That’s now being used a reason of why he is failing potentially. So why do people think we went for him?
He punched up well but has never looked like the man against us in the churn of managers we have had

 

[glorygloryeze]

Frank was highlight regarded in the game
I get why and I backed it
I had reservations about the football but he did have decent footy when he got them promoted as runners up in the championship, so over a full season of hard football
But Brentford’s football was always questionable. People will quote numbers to show improvements but we all know the league table is the measure
And on that front (I didn’t know this)
They have not actually progressed as his time has gone on there (I posted their positions a few days ago) and it’s fair question then imo to ask how much of the progress people think they saw was real. I would have guessed that year on year they got better
But they did sell so many players under his watch, and replace them. Hard to know exactly how much involvement he had in that too. We do know that he is very very unlikely to have managed players who have the “arrogance” of players we have and that takes time.
That was the biggest gamble and something that so far looks something he can’t do.
The left side thing is just dumb dumb dumb and it’s why I’m not keen on the DOFs if they can’t see it. Frank IMO,like Ange before needed balance in the squad and getting lucky with Spence is just that. For me it shows tinkle poor planning still

tinkle poor planning indeed. Almost like aiming for football excellence is secondary....

 

[Finney Is Back]

We've been brick at home for a full calendar year, one of the areas I think Frank is unlucky is he is managing us on the back end of that year and seems to be getting the flack for the whole year, completely ignoring the start of the year.

He could resolve it by winning games of course.

I think he is getting flack because of the eye gougingly bad, anti football. It is incredibly negative, slow, ponderous and boring to watch. The only player who appears to be allowed to pass the ball forwards is Romero.

 

[Kane]

I would ask those moaning about style of play what Fergusson's style of play was. It changed. It adapted. It got players playing better. And it started badly at United if I recall.

Yep, and of todays other top sides? Well, I wouldn't necessarily concur exactly, but I've heard:

'Emirates Marketing Project have been boring since Pep arrived'.
'Goons are as boring as paint drying'.
"Pool are a long-ball team'.
'Villa are boring and unspectacular'

Yet, for example, Pep and his 'training cone' are Spanish, and both hail from Barcelona, no less.
Given these teams' budgets, one might assume these top teams are boring by choice, and for reason(s).

 

[Robspur12]

The squad is better this season. As well as having additional players, our young players are also a season older and more experienced. We also had a huge number of injuries last season but that was always discounted or, worse still, blamed on the manager.

I just can't agree with that. Now I know it is largely a subjective discussion but for me, common sense says that young still relatively inexperienced players do not replace the experienced quality players who are at their peak, who we've lost this season.

Agreed we had a huge number of injuries last season. But the discussion was more nuanced (for most). A lot of posters, me included, didn't understand why, given the number of defensive injuries, we didn't revert to a system that better protected that depleted defence, which we did eventually in the EL.

I also believe that some of the injuries we saw last season were sustained due to the high energy style we were trying to execute and the injuries to Romero and VDV were exacerbated by rushing both back for the Chelsea game. This season, TF seems to be rotating the squad better than we did last season.

Several people on here were quite adamant that we had a top 6 (or even top 4) squad last season and the single problem we had was the manager. Naturally that is now being shown up for what a false narrative that was.

The situation is not the same this season as last when that judgement was made. Losing 3 crucial players to long term injuries as I said before effectively lost to the team (as if they had been sold), a team that has "sold" Deki, Madders and Solanke is without doubt weaker.. I still think if those injured players come back and are match fit we have a decent enough squad to compete for top 6. But currently we are faced with a squad short on confidence and risk averse. On my part, I felt and so did others, our squad was better than what we were showing through our league performances.

 

[fernadez]

Frank was highlight regarded in the game
I get why and I backed it
I had reservations about the football but he did have decent footy when he got them promoted as runners up in the championship, so over a full season of hard football
But Brentford’s football was always questionable. People will quote numbers to show improvements but we all know the league table is the measure
And on that front (I didn’t know this)
They have not actually progressed as his time has gone on there (I posted their positions a few days ago) and it’s fair question then imo to ask how much of the progress people think they saw was real. I would have guessed that year on year they got better
But they did sell so many players under his watch, and replace them. Hard to know exactly how much involvement he had in that too. We do know that he is very very unlikely to have managed players who have the “arrogance” of players we have and that takes time.
That was the biggest gamble and something that so far looks something he can’t do.
The left side thing is just dumb dumb dumb and it’s why I’m not keen on the DOFs if they can’t see it. Frank IMO,like Ange before needed balance in the squad and getting lucky with Spence is just that. For me it shows tinkle poor planning still

Personally I don't think our players have any arrogance at all, which for me is a part of the problem. Relative to our standing we've always had players who were 'too good' for us, players we were worried about leaving and fear would worsen the team, can't name one now. Those players hold themselves to a sort of standard, ours don't. Maybe there are a few with the potential to out grow us, but as of now, they are playing for a club that is their level.
I don't mind a good player who knows they are and refuses to settle, what we have is good players who are happy to settle. Spence and VDV blanking Frank for me was an example of this. Not arrogance but mediocrity and underneath a belief that they will outlast the manager anyway.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think he is getting flack because of the eye gougingly bad, anti football. It is incredibly negative, slow, ponderous and boring to watch. The only player who appears to be allowed to pass the ball forwards is Romero.

Oh hello
What about the Porro bang down the line

 

[fernadez]

I think he is getting flack because of the eye gougingly bad, anti football. It is incredibly negative, slow, ponderous and boring to watch. The only player who appears to be allowed to pass the ball forwards is Romero.

What did you think it was like last season?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Personally I don't think our players have any arrogance at all, which for me is a part of the problem. Relative to our standing we've always had players who were 'too good' for us, players we were worried about leaving and fear would worsen the team, can't name one now. Those players hold themselves to a sort of standard, ours don't. Maybe there are a few with the potential to out grow us, but as of now, they are playing for a club that is their level.
I don't mind a good player who knows they are and refuses to settle, what we have is good players who are happy to settle. Spence and VDV blanking Frank for me was an example of this. Not arrogance but mediocrity and underneath a belief that they will outlast the manager anyway.

Your talking on the pitch arrogance
Don’t know how many players you have met but I’ve met loads
They will all happily talk about mangers who have inspired them and ones who made them down tools… for varying reasons.
Your example nails it but I see it as arrogance but I’m not precious on the term TBH
Conte would have punched the players for doing what they did. Tuchel called Spence up to the England Squad and didn’t play him because of it …. That’s management and power
I’ve not seen that here but then I don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes only on the pitch

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What did you think it was like last season?

That manager got sacked because he didn’t deliver what was needed

 

[Finney Is Back]

I stopped going last season (season ticket), have not been to the last 4 home games either.

That's not on Frank solely, as I've said before the performances now are not any worse then they have been for the last 18 months. The stats back this up by any metric you care to use, (interestingly people who were saying Ange couldn't be judged because of injuries are happy to judge Frank. Personally I'd rather play reserves in defence then have my 3 most useful attacking players out).

We've been useless at home for a good 18 months.

Conversely people who said that Ange should be judged even though he had to contend with massive injury problems are saying that Frank shouldn't be judged because he has a few injuries.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Or we've just still got a manager problem?

We have both a manager problem and a playing squad problem.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yep, and of todays other top sides? Well, I wouldn't necessarily concur exactly, but I've heard:

'Emirates Marketing Project have been boring since Pep arrived'.
'Goons are as boring as paint drying'.
"Pool are a long-ball team'.
'Villa are boring and unspectacular'

Yet, for example, Pep and his 'training cone' are Spanish, and both hail from Barcelona, no less.
Given these teams' budgets, one might assume these top teams are boring by choice, and for reason(s).

All of them are significantly better to watch than Thomas Frank's Spurs team.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I just can't agree with that. Now I know it is largely a subjective discussion but for me, common sense says that young still relatively inexperienced players do not replace the experienced quality players who are at their peak, we've lost this season.

Agreed we had a huge number of injuries last season. But the discussion was more nuanced (for most). A lot of posters, included me, didn't understand why, given the number of defensive injuries, we didn't revert to a system that better protected that depleted defence, which we did eventually in the EL.

I also believe that some of the injuries we saw last season were sustained due to the high energy style we were trying to execute and the injuries to Romero and VDV were exacerbated by rushing both back for the Chelsea game. This season, TF seems to be rotating the squad better than we did last season.

The situation is not the same this season as last when that judgement was made. Losing 3 crucial players to long term injuries as I said before effectively lost to the team (as if they had been sold), a team that has "sold" Deki, Madders and Solanke is without doubt weaker.. I still think if those injured players come back and are match fit we have a decent enough squad to compete for top 6. But currently we are faced with a squad short on confidence and risk averse. On my part, I felt and so did others, our squad was better than what we were showing through our league performances.

Sorry but I don't buy that. Last season we had huge numbers of players out. At one point I think we had to play Gray and Davies as our centre back partnership. All teams suffer injuries. Every team in the league could say "if only X and Y were fit". Frank hasn't had an injury list as big as others in the PL this season and certainly nothing like the one that Ange had at one point last season. I'm not giving him a pass for coaching the team to play this boring, negative, cowardly, anti-football.

 

[Finney Is Back]

What did you think it was like last season?

Quite good at the start, then we got a horrendous number of injuries. Eventually the players came back and we secured safety in the league and then concentrated on the glory of winning the Europa League. We did that by playing cagey football in the away leg at Frankfurt in the quarters and again in the final against Man Utd.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Conversely people who said that Ange should be judged even though he had to contend with massive injury problems are saying that Frank shouldn't be judged because he has a few injuries.

It's all about timing in the job. When people were saying that about Ange he was in his second year in the role, meanwhile Frank is in his first year....context is everything (i'm sure you deep down know that...)