Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[glorygloryeze]

Maybe the truth - unpalatable as it is - that many do not seem to want to accept.

The team that played in the last month needs a complete overhaul. Hopefully that will start in the short term by:
- Dom and Kulu returning (if and when that happens)
- Bergvall and Gray gaining experience and nous
- Simons finally adapting the premiership

But we need at least three windows.... and that is assuming our recruitment department does not repeat the pathetic performance of the past five years.

Yes, maybe, but as others have said could you not at least use gloves?????

 

[Spoonman]

Simply put, we were always a good team but we had exceptional forwards, for a decade. If we want to get back there, forget the style of football, the manager's philosophy, its about the world class front line.

This is spot on.

I think we all underestimate the difference Kane and Son made to our results over the years. Their Xg numbers are insane and in most cases better than any World class striker/forward of the last 10 years that you can name (Salah's are surprisingly poor btw). And we had them both in the team at the same friggin time! We will never be that lucky again. They single handedly turned many poor to average performances into wins.

If you replaced them during the 2015-2022 era with even good forwards from our recent history like Defoe, Keane, Sheringham etc. how many top 4 finishes would we have achieved? Maybe one in 2016/17 when we were an all round excellent team.

First Ange and now Frank have both had to deal with the reality of the drop off and we as fans have to adjust our expectations accordingly.

Kane and Son. A blessing and a curse.

 

[Raziel]

If we are happy to spend the next 10 years hiring and firing, thats cool, but don't expect any major success long terms and sustained

Why? what data backs that statement up? Real Madrid is the most successful club in the world, they change managers like socks, Chelsea fires as many managers as us, no problem being successful.

The SAF & Wenger era's really have created some weird association of manager time = success, as I've mentioned before, multiples of our managers have had their best results in their first season, average tenure in PL is under 2 years (so is no one successful?), If Liverpool fire Slot are they not successful or is it understanding despite winning the PL the drop off can't be tolerated is a ound strategy?

 

[Raziel]

I was afraid as much....

The problem is not that "he hasn't got the coaching to naturally have us passing, moving and attacking in ways that naturally create decent chances for the attackers" or that "the players look like they don't practice it much."

It is because - as @Bishop - so eloquently described yesterday.... the players lack basic passing skills. Otherwise they would not be making an unforced passing error every 3 minutes!! The only way that you can create "decent chances" in this situation is to throw them all in attack hoping a chance materialises by sheer force of numbers. Ange tried that last year (and he actually could play the only two decent passers in the squad - both currently injured) and we saw what was the result of that.....

Nonsense (as kindly as I can say it), the idea that a PL side is full of players who can't pass is simple hyperbole. Look at Wolves, potentially one of the worst PL sides in history, they have Doherty playing at CB for some games, do we think there squad is better, that they can pass but we can't?

The issue is the speed the game is played at in the PL you can't think about where to pass, it has to be drilled, there needs to be patterns, triangles, understanding of where your teammate is, who is making a run, where the space is (and that's what we don't see), next time Porro/Kudus makes a pass that looks like a brick pass into the box, don't default to "who the fudge he was passing to", ask yourself "is that an area someone should actually be"? next time Spence/Porro is trying to make a throw in and zero players are making themselves available/open, tell me again how that is technical ability? Either Frank can't get the message across, the players don't like his message or ?

And I know you will say it's because I have an agenda against Frank (I don't, I have an agenda to see my club do better), go look at the Liverpool game again, when down to 9 men, the players went off script (no orders) and somehow pinned back Liverpool, somehow on instinct the team looked better.

Again, could adding an elite player or two make a difference? yes, for every team, but he simply isn't getting the best out of this squad and passing that off as the entire team can't pass is OTT

 

[glorygloryeze]

Why? what data backs that statement up? Real Madrid is the most successful club in the world, they change managers like socks, Chelsea fires as many managers as us, no problem being successful.

The SAF & Wenger era's really have created some weird association of manager time = success, as I've mentioned before, multiples of our managers have had their best results in their first season, average tenure in PL is under 2 years (so is no one successful?), If Liverpool fire Slot are they not successful or is it understanding despite winning the PL the drop off can't be tolerated is a ound strategy?

Hmm, Chelsea and Real Madrid. Can you think of one key thing that differentiates them from us?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Why? what data backs that statement up? Real Madrid is the most successful club in the world, they change managers like socks, Chelsea fires as many managers as us, no problem being successful.

 

[Raziel]

That's a very fair and detailed summary.

Do you not see though that our owners are the main problem though? I mean many could possibly have seen this issue and they employed Frank, probably because no-one better will come to us after decades of showing that when it comes to the crunch they are NOT ambitious on the football front (i mean REALLY ambitious, not just aiming to quality for Europe/top 4).

We could sack Frank now and i bet we would not be able to attract a better long-term coach. I do not think we are attractive amongst the kind of coaches we'd like/need.

Agree with one, disagree on the other

Unlike others, I don't think this team is brick/dire/bottom half, I think it lacks experience and elite players and the right manager to steer them. If we could have planned well enough to sell 3 players as the window opened, we could have planned to have a new player to help manager (Palace played Johnson this week-end), that is on the owners/leadership

Ancelotti went to Everton, we could offer Iraola 8X his current salary, If we really wanted Glasner he's not out of our range, I'm not sold on either Iraola or Glasner but I think they are better than Frank, I suspect there are several promising coaches in Europe who would be more than willing to make the jump.

Potter & Frank show a warning, don't hire managers from clubs where everything is taken care for the managers, where the system is in place and the expectation is less, clubs like Brentford, Brighton have a model that doesn't work at elite level.

 

[Raziel]

Hmm, Chelsea and Real Madrid. Can you think of one key thing that differentiates them from us?

Didn't answer the question, where is the data, 5 examples of current clubs that show that sticking with a manager brought success? Surely if it's that obvious that giving a manager time brings success, at least 5 clubs would do it? Brighton is the poster child supposedly for non elite club success, they don't have a problem with moving managers on (usually poached) and keeping their level.

Pep, Klopp, Simeone all don't count because their success kept them in role, as far as I can tell Arteta is the only one and 6+ years and 1B+ for 1 FA Cup is hardly wildly successful (may change this season), Frank was the next longest and his club currently has it's best points total at this stage of season with him gone.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Agree with one, disagree on the other

Unlike others, I don't think this team is brick/dire/bottom half, I think it lacks experience and elite players and the right manager to steer them. If we could have planned well enough to sell 3 players as the window opened, we could have planned to have a new player to help manager (Palace played Johnson this week-end), that is on the owners/leadership

Ancelotti went to Everton, we could offer Iraola 8X his current salary, If we really wanted Glasner he's not out of our range, I'm not sold on either Iraola or Glasner but I think they are better than Frank, I suspect there are several promising coaches in Europe who would be more than willing to make the jump.

Potter & Frank show a warning, don't hire managers from clubs where everything is taken care for the managers, where the system is in place and the expectation is less, clubs like Brentford, Brighton have a model that doesn't work at elite level.

We were in the same situation last year at this time, i.e. you and many others asking why Ange was still in the role and that we could easily get another manager who'd make the team instantly better etc.

We then hired one of the very managers you yourself thought wouldn't work here...what does that tell you about how things are working at THFC? The same owners (minus the main figurehead) are still here, so what makes you think a) they'd be able to get a better manager than Frank and b) have the kudos/attraction for a better coach to risk their time/reputation joining Spurs?

We've had better managers join Spurs before after all...

 

[Raziel]

We were in the same situation last year at this time, i.e. you and many others asking why Ange was still in the role and that we could easily get another manager who'd make the team instantly better etc.

We then hired one of the very managers you yourself thought wouldn't work here...what does that tell you about how things are working at THFC? The same owners (minus the main figurehead) are still here, so what makes you think a) they'd be able to get a better manager than Frank and b) have the kudos/attraction for a better coach to risk their time/reputation joining Spurs?

We've had better managers join Spurs before after all...

I think A and B are two different things

- I have limited confidence that we have our brick together to pick the right manager, back them and give them the air cover to get the time to be successful (for all my complaints of Frank, no one in the club is helping him, taking any of the heat, honestly if Levy was still here, Frank's job would have been easier)
- Spurs has a good base squad, it is still a step up and with the money we have made available to Ange as example, it's still attractive. And the good news is Ange removed the need to win a trophy instantly.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Didn't answer the question, where is the data, 5 examples of current clubs that show that sticking with a manager brought success? Surely if it's that obvious that giving a manager time brings success, at least 5 clubs would do it? Brighton is the poster child supposedly for non elite club success, they don't have a problem with moving managers on (usually poached) and keeping their level.

Pep, Klopp, Simeone all don't count because their success kept them in role, as far as I can tell Arteta is the only one and 6+ years and 1B+ for 1 FA Cup is hardly wildly successful (may change this season), Frank was the next longest and his club currently has it's best points total at this stage of season with him gone.

Money AND backing is what Real Madrid and Chelsea, whilst being very trigger happy ALWAYS gives their managers (Chelsea certainly until recently). We have barely done that and when it looked like we would, we half-assed it with Conte..

Again, there's no point talking about success in a role and bringing up those teams and managers, we don't back managers like they have been.

One thing Arteta cannot complain about is lack of backing, certainly more than we have ever done to our coaches and i'm sure that is contributing to the toxicity we see at the moment: when Arteta got to the same state Poch did, instead of saying "go on carry n fighting with one hand behind your back against the other big clubs" they doubled-down and kept backing him....

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think A and B are two different things

- I have limited confidence that we have our brick together to pick the right manager, back them and give them the air cover to get the time to be successful (for all my complaints of Frank, no one in the club is helping him, taking any of the heat, honestly if Levy was still here, Frank's job would have been easier)
- Spurs has a good base squad, it is still a step up and with the money we have made available to Ange as example, it's still attractive. And the good news is Ange removed the need to win a trophy instantly.

Ok, is Frank an upgrade on Ange?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Pep, Klopp, Simeone all don't count because their success kept them in role, as far as I can tell Arteta is the only one and 6+ years and 1B+ for 1 FA Cup is hardly wildly successful (may change this season), Frank was the next longest and his club currently has it's best points total at this stage of season with him gone.

Klopp took 3 years to win his first trophy, famously job was under threat and he was vocal about him having to go to the board year 1 to explain away his plan because of initial pressure

 

[Raziel]

Money AND backing is what Real Madrid and Chelsea, whilst being very trigger happy ALWAYS gives their managers (Chelsea certainly until recently). We have barely done that and when it looked like we would, we half-assed it with Conte..

Again, there's no point talking about success in a role and bringing up those teams and managers, we don't back managers like they have been.

One thing Arteta cannot complain about is lack of backing, certainly more than we have ever done to our coaches and i'm sure that is contributing to the toxicity we see at the moment: when Arteta got to the same state Poch did, instead of saying "go on carry n fighting with one hand behind your back against the other big clubs" they doubled-down and kept backing him....

Ange got €420.95m spent in 3 windows, if we maintained that for 6+ years it would not be far off the number Arteta got. We can argue about wages or recruitment but since Conte the club has been spending money (post stadium, post Covid). We may not spend like City/Chelsea but we are not that far off that comparisons don't matter. Still think you dodged the question

Ok, is Frank an upgrade on Ange?

Floor is higher, Ceiling is lower. We can bookmark this for end of season but Frank is a mistake, history will show it.

 

[Raziel]

Klopp took 3 years to win his first trophy, famously job was under threat and he was vocal about him having to go to the board year 1 to explain away his plan because of initial pressure

Outside of the season he took over from Rodgers, his first 3 full seasons were 4th, 4th and 2nd, no one's job is really under threat finishing in CL spots. And it was very obvious what his team was trying to do.

Again, if Ange last season or Frank this season were 7th, this wouldn't be a conversation.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Outside of the season he took over from Rodgers, his first 3 full seasons were 4th, 4th and 2nd, no one's job is really under threat finishing in CL spots. And it was very obvious what his team was trying to do.

Again, if Ange last season or Frank this season were 7th, this wouldn't be a conversation.

Rubbish the games littered with it, Chelsea have just sacked a manager who won a trophy and for them in the CL via the league

 

[Lemonade Money]

Ok, is Frank an upgrade on Ange?

Is everything you post a question?

 

[billyiddo]

Again, if Ange last season or Frank this season were 7th, this wouldn't be a conversation.

A whole 3 points more than what we currently have would be enough to halt the conversation?

 

[Junior19]

Nonsense (as kindly as I can say it), the idea that a PL side is full of players who can't pass is simple hyperbole. Look at Wolves, potentially one of the worst PL sides in history, they have Doherty playing at CB for some games, do we think there squad is better, that they can pass but we can't?

And I know you will say it's because I have an agenda against Frank (I don't, I have an agenda to see my club do better), go look at the Liverpool game again, when down to 9 men, the players went off script (no orders) and somehow pinned back Liverpool, somehow on instinct the team looked better.

Absolutely spot on. For a brief second after the sending off I seriously thought we were having a second "vs Chelsea"-moment. We lined up just about every player and his dog at the half-way line and threw everything forward like there were no tomorrow. And suddenly we -played-.

But of course, at that time the game was pretty much over.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Is everything you post a question?

How can i find out?