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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
But that still doesn’t compute with ‘we finished 17th last season’.

If he’s using that league finish as a justification for where we’re actually at, rather than the fact we were favourites to win a European competition that we qualified for by finishing 5th, then I’d say he’s being very selective.

I can totally accept there were no CL sides. I can accept we were favourites. But if we’re favourites for that competition we have to also accept that finishing 17th wasn’t a true indication of where the squad actually was. And therefore it’s not really useful for determining how well Frank should be doing right now.

As I’ve said, if he made the argument that he’s at the start of a cycle, and so some inconsistency is to be expected, I have sympathy with that all day long. But he’s making the argument that the club was the fourth worst in the division, which I think is nonsense.
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It does compute because we are a better side than 17th. I think we are Top 10. 17th is a severe under performance.

All winning the EL says is that we weren't able to get results in the league as we were the EL.

Tbh I find finishing 5th the year before more of a performing above expectations achievement.
 
Kane said:
Well, its one thing to moan and complain, and quite another to be constructive and come up with solutions.

In amongst their outrage, did they say who they wanted if he does go now?
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Well, I’d say it would come down to…

1) if they want someone like Xavi (a gamble given he’ll head back to Barca some day IMO)
2) if there are backdoor discussions with Glasner (who I think would be decent but still not have it easy)
3) if they are backdoor talking with Poch about his return post-World Cup (which feels very much like the sort of move which could be made to buy romance, etc - FWIW I love him and am not sure it’d be the right move)

The solution depends largely on whether we want his style of football or not IMO.
 
Bishop said:
I hope whoever we get next is a fans favourite so that we just bypass the whole "he's not to the level required" conundrum. At least then we can just look at the quality of the players we have and address all their failings without all the extra brick. At the moment too many people are focused on the failings of the coach and not accepting the problems this squad has. I'm just hopefully when we get the next guy everyone can get onto the same page.
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Yeah it's why I say Poch would be the best idea as would have the instant buy in of the vast majority - at this moment in time it feels like would be a 'quick win'....
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I think thats already been answered. If you lay out the teams at the start, and with no CL drop ins to muddy the market , we are in the bunch of favourites just on name size.

Anyway ...It wasn't the point I was making tbh.
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Being favourites on name size isn’t relevant to what the actual quality of our squad is, and that’s what Frank is talking about. He’s trying to justify a level of performance and set expectations on what he judges as realistic. It’s nothing to do with our name.

I accept we were favourites. I also think we have a deeper squad this year, and less unprecedented injuries. I expect this squad to be top 8 at the bare minimum. I still think it’s likely that Frank gets us that. I’m not sure I would class it as competing on all fronts which was the goal he set himself, but I think that’s the bare minimum. I think someone doing ‘well’ with this squad gets us back into the European places via the league, which given we managed it two seasons ago shouldn’t be too much of a stretch.
 
Bishop said:
I hope whoever we get next is a fans favourite so that we just bypass the whole "he's not to the level required" conundrum. At least then we can just look at the quality of the players we have and address all their failings without all the extra brick. At the moment too many people are focused on the failings of the coach and not accepting the problems this squad has. I'm just hopefully when we get the next guy everyone can get onto the same page.
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You’ve posted repeatedly about how average the squad is. I think we can all see the short-comings/imbalances. Trust me, no-one thinks Frank should be winning the league with this, however we should absolutely be in the top 7/8 right now with potential new signings/returnees to boost.
 
Bishop said:
It does compute because we are a better side than 17th. I think we are Top 10. 17th is a severe under performance.

All winning the EL says is that we weren't able to get results in the league as we were the EL.

Tbh I find finishing 5th the year before more of a performing above expectations achievement.
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So if you agree that 17th is severe under performance and think we should be top 10…why are you defending Frank’s comments? He’s using 17th as a justification for the hard job that he has, and as a description for where this side actually is. Eg not a CL side, but a side that finished 17th.

In reality, I think we’re bare minimum top 8 and with good coaching we’re back in 5th or 6th. With great coaching we’re top 4. You think we’re top 10, so not a million miles apart. Why is finishing 17th therefore any use at all in determining where the side is today?
 
Kane said:
Well, its one thing to moan and complain, and quite another to be constructive and come up with solutions.

In amongst their outrage, did they say who they wanted if he does go now?
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Glasner seems to be the name mentioned, but I feel they havent actually watched his teams.

He is a very very good coach though
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Yikes. I had completely forgotten that quote from when he came in. Very interesting to see how the tune is changed.
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Indeed. TRUE honesty would’ve been congratulating the side and mentioning ‘we have to do better than 17th’ at that moment. I’d say the truth is that Frank (like many of his peers) would’ve recognised what a brick show things were last season in terms of injuries and behind the scenes brick, thus actually did see what we did as a huge achievement!
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Being favourites on name size isn’t relevant to what the actual quality of our squad is, and that’s what Frank is talking about. He’s trying to justify a level of performance and set expectations on what he judges as realistic. It’s nothing to do with our name.

I accept we were favourites. I also think we have a deeper squad this year, and less unprecedented injuries. I expect this squad to be top 8 at the bare minimum. I still think it’s likely that Frank gets us that. I’m not sure I would class it as competing on all fronts which was the goal he set himself, but I think that’s the bare minimum. I think someone doing ‘well’ with this squad gets us back into the European places via the league, which given we managed it two seasons ago shouldn’t be too much of a stretch.
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That was my point....the outcomes of last season ended up solely (laser) focussed on how well we did in 5 games.

Any other assessment is moot.
It offered no indicators, pointers or potentials.

So I suppose I'm agreeing with you in as much as I'm saying last season left us with no reference point to who we are or where we are at. So Frank shouldn't be using it as such?

I too think we have a higher ceiling than we are showing.

But now we're fighting against everything getting pilloried, bogged down and downgraded all because of on field results
 
harr1984 said:
Yeah it's why I say Poch would be the best idea as would have the instant buy in of the vast majority - at this moment in time it feels like would be a 'quick win'....
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That buy-in wouldn't last long unless it was followed by performance & results and could quickly turn toxic with 'i told you so's' if the results & performances don't meet expectation.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
That was my point....the outcomes of last season ended up solely (laser) focussed on how well we did in 5 games.

Any other assessment is moot.
It offered no indicators, pointers or potentials.

So I suppose I'm agreeing with you in as much as I'm saying last season left us with no reference point to who we are or where we are at. So Frank shouldn't be using it as such?

I too think we have a higher ceiling than we are showing.

But now we're fighting against everything getting pilloried, bogged down and downgraded all because of on field results
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Ok. I completely agree with you.

Because I don’t look at last season like actually we were title challengers if not for the injuries or something. I look at it like we were on again for 5th or 6th, and then the injuries just brought us into something that no one can take any meaning from. We weren’t an amazing side. We weren’t 17th quality either. We were simply a side that had to deal with an incredible amount of hardship, and found a way to overcome it to earn some rare, tangible success. Seemingly by having a vision that the players bought into. Something that was bigger than themselves. Something that endured despite those hardships. That to me makes it a special season.

To use it as a justification for current poor performances I think is just poor. I’m not sure what it’s supposed to achieve or who it’s for. It’s an outlier season that the side made something of. Reading anything more into than that is silly, one way or the other.

Given that we’ve finished in the European places in the league more often than not since 05/06, I think that should really always be the aim. This should be Frank’s aim and he should be comfortable going for it. No excuses. I accept that Villa are changing the definition of the top 6, but I simply don’t buy that our squad is suddenly so much worse than the rest of the league over the course of two years since we last finished 5th. I think a recent rare outlier season that you can’t read too much into one way or the other has coloured people’s opinions of our players, and now seemingly given our manager an excuse.
 
billyiddo said:
That buy-in wouldn't last long unless it was followed by performance & results and could quickly turn toxic with 'i told you so's' if the results & performances don't meet expectation.
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Told you sos by who though? The major attraction of Poch is that the vast majority of fans love him/remember him fondly and there wouldn't be that kind of debate anywhere near the scale we've had in recent times - at least as far as I can gauge?

With the low ebb we are at, I'm pretty confident fans would settle with a clear vision - which is where I believe the majority were/are with Frank, the problem being they aren't really seeing such translated on the pitch. And of course results will have to follow eventually, but if there is evidence of a plan then there will be a fair bit of patience (Poch or not of course that will have its limit).

And let's be fair as much as I'm talking about the fan buy in, in isolation Poch is just a very good coach....
 
harr1984 said:
Told you sos by who though? The major attraction of Poch is that the vast majority of fans love him/remember him fondly and there wouldn't be that kind of debate anywhere near the scale we've had in recent times - at least as far as I can gauge?

With the low ebb we are at, I'm pretty confident fans would settle with a clear vision - which is where I believe the majority were/are with Frank, the problem being they aren't really seeing such translated on the pitch. And of course results will have to follow eventually, but if there is evidence of a plan then there will be a fair bit of patience (Poch or not of course that will have its limit).

And let's be fair as much as I'm talking about the fan buy in, in isolation Poch is just a very good coach....
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Lol - I'd have you down as one for starters 😂
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Any links to this 'Sky interview' ?....I've only watched the one where he's reminiscing about Christmas
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It’s out there. Three days ago. I’d say having watched the 5 minute piece, the only context is that he mentions how we finished 8th and 5th the seasons before as being ‘indicators’ of the overhaul needed, however it all gets blown out of the water by his early doors statements which I posted above. I understand that a new manager will always come in with a degree of hyperbole, but what he said clearly stated that he saw ‘foundations to build upon’ whereas now he’s retreated to the bunker of ‘been in need of an overhaul for a long time - just look’…I wonder what has happened between July and December…
 
billyiddo said:
That buy-in wouldn't last long unless it was followed by performance & results and could quickly turn toxic with 'i told you so's' if the results & performances don't meet expectation.
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If he did half the job he did at Chelsea with this squad, we'll be flying.

There's no point waiting till the summer. If there's no Frank green shoots in the next 2 or 3 games, make the phonecall now
 
billyiddo said:
Lol - I'd have you down as one for starters 😂
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I'm not sure why? If you're referring to Frank he certainly wasn't my pick and I had concerns about him when appointed and it's fair to say he hasn't alleviated such concerns. But I don't want him sacked, it's only fair to evaluate at the end of the season bar a disaster.

I'd rather keep Frank and see if he can turn it around, but once you lose the majority of the fan base (no idea if we are even close to that yet) and then the writing is on the wall....
 
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