The owners - where do you sit?

[Raziel]

No one is perfect and Levy has made his fair share of mistakes. But on the whole he has consistently moved us forward. One thing that people need to understand, however, is that the closer you get to the top, the more difficult it is to get to the next level. Getting from an average finish of 13th-14th to an average finish of 9th-10th is easier and takes less time than getting from an average finish of 9th-10th to 5th-6th, which in turn is easier and take less time than getting from an average finish of 5th-6th to 2nd-3rd. And when you are at or near the top you have more room to drop off than to go higher. The important thing is that you are always within that group of 3-4 teams that can challenge for titles. We were there for a spell and we dropped off (and I'll get to why below), but even to have established us as one of the top 5-6 clubs in the league and kept us there for the past 15 years with no money doping, is an achievement not to be scoffed at.

In my mind Levy made a couple of mistakes. First of all, he didn't put a cutting edge football operations structure in place sooner and take a step back from the football side of things. Had he done that around the same time Poch was appointed, we'd be in a different place right now. Secondly (and this is probably the result of the first mistake), he appointed Mourinho and Conte in the hope they would end the trophy curse, which was very reactionary and not strategic at all. The Mou and Conte appointments also set us back. A rebuild should have started in the 19/20 season and not the 23/24 season. But it is what it is and I can see why Mou and Conte were appointed: fans were clamoring for a trophy and trophy managers were appointed with the assumption by Levy that the playing personnel was at the required standards. I'm guessing the thinking was that we just got to a CL final the year before Mou was appointed, so it had to be good enough for at least a League Cup, no? Just needed the "winning" manager touch. With Conte it was the same and a huge investment was made, but he was totally the wrong manager to spend money for.

So here we are today. We ended up taking 2 steps backward to move 3 forward, but that's how it is in many walks of life and business. What's important is that we are constantly inching forward and we are. Maybe not at the speed that some would like, but in today's football environment and with the financial regulations in place and yet to come giant leaps are no longer possible. We are, however, extremely well positioned to take advantage of the new football financial landscape thanks to ENIC. If someone had told us 5-10 years ago that we would be able to outspend clubs like Barcelona, we'd be laughing. Yet here we are and with Ange we've only just begun to put our stamp on the football side of things too.

I think you always have to look at context with Levy

- In my opinion, his vision for the club is years ahead of everyone else
- He understood very early we need better revenues (stadium), non football events, etc. than most (City is copying by building a non football facility, Real Madrid basically copied the two pitch idea), not his fault London & Government fudged us around for years, so stadium probably got built 5 years later than it should have.
- He was the first (or one of) to have a DoF in England, I remember Sky/BT/BBC constantly harping on how "Levy doesn't understand, DoF's a European thing and won't work in England where SAF/Wenger types are the model" fast forward a decade? remember his early DoF got poached. The football structure got delayed because of Poch (who wanted more power and complained about being "coach")
- He tried to revive the club when Chelsea then City came about, so two top spots were instantly taken.

The result
- Levy's legacy is a "future proofed" Spurs, we are safe from the worries of an Everton, West Ham or even Villa. The stadium will always generate enough money to buy our way out of bad decisions (much like Liverpool and United have done over last decade), that plus training ground means infrastructure cost outlay is a minimum over next decade or two. The brand is also at an all time high globally.
- We are (this is often forgotten in the trophy conversation) in the most consistent run of results in the league in the clubs history, we have played in Europe in 16 out of last 17 seasons (club has not played in Europe more times in his history vs. under ENIC/Levy)

The fudgeups
- Jose/Conte, in my opinion this was always an attempt to get something out of the squad Poch failed with, one last chance with a proven winner and perhaps with stadium revenue not available previously to support (then Covid hit).
- The times when we went away from our good recruitment (era after Son buy -> Paratici coming in)

I'll answer OP question separately

 

[Bishop]

Ultimately no.

They are too cautious in their approach and over the years have made too many poor footballing decisions for me. The model they follow isn't an issue for me, but its one thing to attempt a method of operation and another to actually execute, and I think we've failed at executing. There is very muddled football knowledge, they clearly are quite clueless about such important football matters as squad composition (not this season, but many previously). I could go into depth but fundamentally I don't see Levy as a good football chairman, his understanding of the game and the methods and approaches to take I find very wanting.

There is a model a club like ourselves should follow and we do partially but then appoint a Mourinho or Conte and it just makes me think that Levy doesn't even understand his own model or why those men were successful in the first place. He courted Jose for years, and in 2021 to still refer to him as "one of the best two managers in the world" I find very, very concerning. There have been too many missed opportunities over the years for me, on the balance they are in the negative.

Recent decisions and actions have been Positive but it will take quite some time before I believe in their ability to execute.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Deeper pockets won't cut it these days. Clubs need to be self-sustainable. If Bezos buys Wolves, for example, it will still take them years to be able to compete at the top level, if they even get to that. He can't just do what Abramovich and the Emiratis did with Chelsea and City. He will still need to build up the club organically like ENIC did with Spurs and that takes time. Might be able to do it a little bit faster, but it will still be at least a 10-year project.

Deeper pockets doesn’t mean unsustainable
Were the shining light of running as a Club as a business but if the cash removes debt there is more room to buy and invest
We have room unlike many others for that to happen

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Fair point, but at the same time other clubs were hit harder and needed to sell

Also it goes back to the argument of signing a few meh players for 5/10 million or going in for one in Skriniar, who could have made a big difference.

We still spent a decent chunk of money that summer.

Was anyone hit harder?
I mean we planned on spending on the basis of a new stadium income
We lost that instantly and that for us was an increase of about £80m on previous seasons
Huge chunk of money that we couldn’t recover

Others lost revenue but had to sell because they spent too much. Big difference IMO

 

[Grays_1890]

Our fans find it hard to distinguish between owner and Levy which is the problem IMO. As Simon Jordan said it Lewis decides to put no money in Levy is not and was not cash rich enough to fund things himself, so his choice was redevelop the club and revenue or rub his hands together hoping to produce money out of thin air. It might be a slower strategy thats exposed by cash rich doping but other than what he done what was Levys alternative? Facts are there were none.

So In Levys hands we are 100% in right place, in owners, maybe thats more debatable

 

[Raziel]

Re where I am with owner

- I'm happy with where the club is for now, while being very frustrated with where the game (football in general) is. City (140 charges of breaking rules, accounting that claims they make more commercial revenue than Real Madrid) & Saudi Sportswashing Machine are a fudging joke (who competes with a £320B fund?), and Chelsea is beyond words (lost £1M/week for 13 years under RA and follow that up with £1.2B in spend)
- We don't play rapists, wife beaters in our squad, our manager isn't a whining clam, our club doesn't write embarrassing victim letters, our stadium and training club are green/ecologically friendly, we contribute to our local area & charities
- The football is back to what we are

The question comes down to two things
1. What is success for you?
2. How much are you willing to compromise ethics to get there

For me
1. The club historical level of success is fine with me combined with ENIC's consistency in league, i.e. 2 or 3 trophies a decade plus consistent European football would be good if we play the right way. If you suddenly expect a trophy every year or other year, then the self sustaining model doesn't work (btw, reminder as people dismiss it, when owners re-invest the profit into a company, they are investing their own money) and you need cheaters/money doping
2. I don't want us in the hands of an Oligarch type or a state trying to sports wash their brick image, we are all hypocrites and I know I can't really walk away, but no question it sours the taste

Two additional things to remember
- It's been 22+ years, and outside of the 3 big clubs that took advantage of the PL/CL era (Pool, United & Scum) and the money dopers (Chelsea, City), no other club has had a better last two decades (there is always this year's Villa, Brighton, Brentford, Leicester, Everton, etc but no one manages to sustain it). That in itself tells us something re Levy's results.
- As recently as Bohley, others have tried to buy Spurs, look at Chelsea, look at United, that's what owners that know nothing about football look like.

The interesting experiment for me would be if someone bought a percentage of the club now, where with Levy/Ange/current structure we could input 500M over a couple of windows ...

 

[braineclipse]

Yes.

Sure there would be potential better owners. But if we were to change ownership now I think it would be significantly more likely to end up worse than better.

Levy needs a good structure below him on the football side (all chairmen do). DoF type, scouting, head coach/manager. He's failed at getting that structure right several times (all chairmen do). Happy to see him seemingly getting that right now after some troublesome years.

Ange has been brilliant. Absolutely fantastic. But the positive effects of getting the right head coach in is increased both by the rest of that structure and by how we've developed as a club under Levy over the years.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Re where I am with owner

- I'm happy with where the club is for now, while being very frustrated with where the game (football in general) is. City (140 charges of breaking rules, accounting that claims they make more commercial revenue than Real Madrid) & Saudi Sportswashing Machine are a fudging joke (who competes with a £320B fund?), and Chelsea is beyond words (lost £1M/week for 13 years under RA and follow that up with £1.2B in spend)
- We don't play rapists, wife beaters in our squad, our manager isn't a whining clam, our club doesn't write embarrassing victim letters, our stadium and training club are green/ecologically friendly, we contribute to our local area & charities
- The football is back to what we are

The question comes down to two things
1. What is success for you?
2. How much are you willing to compromise ethics to get there

For me
1. The club historical level of success is fine with me combined with ENIC's consistency in league, i.e. 2 or 3 trophies a decade plus consistent European football would be good if we play the right way. If you suddenly expect a trophy every year or other year, then the self sustaining model doesn't work (btw, reminder as people dismiss it, when owners re-invest the profit into a company, they are investing their own money) and you need cheaters/money doping
2. I don't want us in the hands of an Oligarch type or a state trying to sports wash their brick image, we are all hypocrites and I know I can't really walk away, but no question it sours the taste

Two additional things to remember
- It's been 22+ years, and outside of the 3 big clubs that took advantage of the PL/CL era (Pool, United & Scum) and the money dopers (Chelsea, City), no other club has had a better last two decades (there is always this year's Villa, Brighton, Brentford, Leicester, Everton, etc but no one manages to sustain it). That in itself tells us something re Levy's results.
- As recently as Bohley, others have tried to buy Spurs, look at Chelsea, look at United, that's what owners that know nothing about football look like.

The interesting experiment for me would be if someone bought a percentage of the club now, where with Levy/Ange/current structure we could input 500M over a couple of windows ...

This is where I am. I think, under whatever model, we will win a few pots again. It's been a while but it'll come.

This is where I get frustrated with some followers of the modern game. It's all "well, show me your trophies, you've never won any". Firstly, it's a pretty blunt argument just to say "we won more trophies and that's all that's important". If it was, you need never watch football, just keep an eye on Wikipedia. Secondly, if everyone took that approach, we'd all be City fans this week. Thirdly, know your history, we've won plenty.

Football is more than that. For me, it's the escape. The feeling you get when Spurs score in whatever game. The last minute winners that have you dancing around your living room, the pub, hugging the person next to you at the game. The nails that get chewed when you think "I'm going to be sick. I can't f**king watch this last 30 minutes, why the f**k do I do this to myself?" In the moment and for the rest of the evening that Deki scored the winner against Sheffield United, for example, that gave me infinitely more joy than anything we'd done in the past and it was a relatively minor game.

It's also about the belonging. In Ireland, everyone supports Liverpool or United so I was well in the minority for most of my life. Walking up the High Road the day of the CL final was incredible. A sea of white and navy soundtracked by Tottenham songs. I often stand back in the concourses or the pub around the stadium and just love the fact I'm amongst thousands of people who think and feel like I do about football.

So what will be will be in terms of trophies. We'll win some even if they aren't as frequent as we'd like. This club will never stop giving me joy (and frustration) and Levy and Ange are much better custodians than 99% of the other options available.

/GETS OFF SOAPBOX

 

[Surfless]

I think it's safe to say we have a balanced bunch of fans here. The same can't be said for the Facebook boards.

Some bloke complimented another "fan" for saying that Levy would bottle it for this window and we'd buy nobody, as usual"....

To which I replied this (and have been slated for being a happy clapper)

"Steve Mac is it? Honestly? Or is it a long repeated and factually innacurate statement based around the idea our board doesn't invest?

Our record signing figure is £63m. That places us 6th in terms of highest fee paid, level with Saudi Sportswashing Machine, who spent their record fee since they became financially doped.

Our spend over the last 10 years has been just under £1.2bn. Again 6th in the league.

Our revenue is reported at £442m in 2022 which places us 5th above Arsenal.

We now have the second biggest stadium in the country, and by far the best training facilities. This has cost more than £1.4bn to achieve and has another phase yet to come.

In terms of points gained since the Premier league started we sit 5th as one of the five clubs ever present in the division, with 532 wins.

Based on a 20 team league, we are better in all metrics than 14 others and 15 in most cases.

There has been a plan to build towards financial strength and the ability to compete, which now once stadium repayments have ended will see us the biggest non financially doped club in the country.

The area we have not succeeded has been in managerial appointments, it would appear until now. We can dwell on the attempts to win with serial winners like Conte and Jose, or the stadium plans impacting Poch's ability to spend, even going back as far as appointing Frank Arnesen only for him to defect to Chelski, but I prefer to look at our club as being the best it's ever been and now possessing a manager who has our style running through his veins.

So no, it's not a great answer, it's a tired answer, and for me the wrong answer. If we don't get what we need this window (suddenly we expect miracles in the mid season window where nobody wants to sell?) it will happen in the summer, and then a full Ange pre season sets us up for 2025. This season and Ange's project was never going to be built in a day."

 

[Grays_1890]

I think it's safe to say we have a balanced bunch of fans here. The same can't be said for the Facebook boards.

Some bloke complimented another "fan" for saying that Levy would bottle it for this window and we'd buy nobody, as usual"....

To which I replied this (and have been slated for being a happy clapper)

"Steve Mac is it? Honestly? Or is it a long repeated and factually innacurate statement based around the idea our board doesn't invest?

Our record signing figure is £63m. That places us 6th in terms of highest fee paid, level with Saudi Sportswashing Machine, who spent their record fee since they became financially doped.

Our spend over the last 10 years has been just under £1.2bn. Again 6th in the league.

Our revenue is reported at £442m in 2022 which places us 5th above Arsenal.

We now have the second biggest stadium in the country, and by far the best training facilities. This has cost more than £1.4bn to achieve and has another phase yet to come.

In terms of points gained since the Premier league started we sit 5th as one of the five clubs ever present in the division, with 532 wins.

Based on a 20 team league, we are better in all metrics than 14 others and 15 in most cases.

There has been a plan to build towards financial strength and the ability to compete, which now once stadium repayments have ended will see us the biggest non financially doped club in the country.

The area we have not succeeded has been in managerial appointments, it would appear until now. We can dwell on the attempts to win with serial winners like Conte and Jose, or the stadium plans impacting Poch's ability to spend, even going back as far as appointing Frank Arnesen only for him to defect to Chelski, but I prefer to look at our club as being the best it's ever been and now possessing a manager who has our style running through his veins.

So no, it's not a great answer, it's a tired answer, and for me the wrong answer. If we don't get what we need this window (suddenly we expect miracles in the mid season window where nobody wants to sell?) it will happen in the summer, and then a full Ange pre season sets us up for 2025. This season and Ange's project was never going to be built in a day."

Mate social media is mad for this stuff

This is horrendous BTW, for the use of Cancer and also believing Sky

 

[Surfless]

Yeah we have one or two here who believe everything they read, but in the main we self audit on idiots it appears.

Dragusin to Napoli is highly unlikely btw, they can't pay anything like the wages we do and his agent is saying he wants to stay.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think it's safe to say we have a balanced bunch of fans here. The same can't be said for the Facebook boards.

Some bloke complimented another "fan" for saying that Levy would bottle it for this window and we'd buy nobody, as usual"....

To which I replied this (and have been slated for being a happy clapper)

"Steve Mac is it? Honestly? Or is it a long repeated and factually innacurate statement based around the idea our board doesn't invest?

Our record signing figure is £63m. That places us 6th in terms of highest fee paid, level with Saudi Sportswashing Machine, who spent their record fee since they became financially doped.

Our spend over the last 10 years has been just under £1.2bn. Again 6th in the league.

Our revenue is reported at £442m in 2022 which places us 5th above Arsenal.

We now have the second biggest stadium in the country, and by far the best training facilities. This has cost more than £1.4bn to achieve and has another phase yet to come.

In terms of points gained since the Premier league started we sit 5th as one of the five clubs ever present in the division, with 532 wins.

Based on a 20 team league, we are better in all metrics than 14 others and 15 in most cases.

There has been a plan to build towards financial strength and the ability to compete, which now once stadium repayments have ended will see us the biggest non financially doped club in the country.

The area we have not succeeded has been in managerial appointments, it would appear until now. We can dwell on the attempts to win with serial winners like Conte and Jose, or the stadium plans impacting Poch's ability to spend, even going back as far as appointing Frank Arnesen only for him to defect to Chelski, but I prefer to look at our club as being the best it's ever been and now possessing a manager who has our style running through his veins.

So no, it's not a great answer, it's a tired answer, and for me the wrong answer. If we don't get what we need this window (suddenly we expect miracles in the mid season window where nobody wants to sell?) it will happen in the summer, and then a full Ange pre season sets us up for 2025. This season and Ange's project was never going to be built in a day."

I'd like to say 'nicely written' but tbh Im not sure why you bothered.

Most areas of SM are impenetrable. Thankfully not here, we have a mix, but a mix that can converse with each other, amicably, not reply with one word answers or clichéd labels. It's likely they're the opposite to a happy clapper ie a miserable c.unt. And I bet that negative outlook extends way beyond the football team they support.

 

[Legohamster]

Was anyone hit harder?
I mean we planned on spending on the basis of a new stadium income
We lost that instantly and that for us was an increase of about £80m on previous seasons
Huge chunk of money that we couldn’t recover

Others lost revenue but had to sell because they spent too much. Big difference IMO

I'd say the European clubs were, they didn't have TV deals keeping them going, look at the state of Barca/Inter/Juve etc 2 years on.

We have mid/small sized prem league clubs out bidding big European clubs now.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'd say the European clubs were, they didn't have TV deals keeping them going, look at the state of Barca/Inter/Juve etc 2 years on.

We have mid/small sized prem league clubs out bidding big European clubs now.

Yeah that I can agree with, for sure
I was thinking prem

 

[Spur of the moment]

I voted yes. But then I'm prepared to accept that the next time we get to a domestic final Levy will once again overrule his manager or sack him if he insists on playing his strongest team in the final ahead of prioritising CL qualification.

For me the blind obsession with trophies is for those who hang their egos like a noose around the throat of the club they support.

Me? I just enjoy watching good football. Hopefully the legacy of Mourinho and Conte is that Levy will henceforth pursue success through positive, attacking football rather than winning at any cost.

 

[Surfless]

my ongoing new relationship with the spurs pages on FB has resulted in my being offered a fight, being told I'm effing deluded and largely being met with anger at having a different view. Oh and people saying we should go back to 3 at the back, shouldn't sign a centreback as they will sit on the bench, and that Kulu is "slow and lumbering, needs to be benched".

 

[braineclipse]

my ongoing new relationship with the spurs pages on FB has resulted in my being offered a fight, being told I'm effing deluded and largely being met with anger at having a different view. Oh and people saying we should go back to 3 at the back, shouldn't sign a centreback as they will sit on the bench, and that Kulu is "slow and lumbering, needs to be benched".

We appreciate you on here Surfless.

 

[Spur of the moment]

my ongoing new relationship with the spurs pages on FB has resulted in my being offered a fight, being told I'm effing deluded and largely being met with anger at having a different view. Oh and people saying we should go back to 3 at the back, shouldn't sign a centreback as they will sit on the bench, and that Kulu is "slow and lumbering, needs to be benched".

FB? Just stay clear.

 

[billyiddo]

FB groups are where you're most likely to find 5G anti vax loonies, no surprise that Spurs chat on there centers around anti ENIC rhetoric

 

[Baleforce]

Say hi to Dubai on there for me