The owners - where do you sit?

[DeanoAustin]

Look where Woolwich, Chelsea, City, Liverpool and United were compared to us before Levy took over..

City and Chelsea were nowhere near where they are when Levy took over.

And for how long do you make that argument? If we're in the same position in 2040, do you keep saying "well they had a head start on us"? 22 years is enough time to have caught up if you were really serious about doing it.

I'm not bashing ENIC. I think they've been great owners to get us to where we are on and off the pitch. But, looking at the club, they're the biggest blocker at this point, to us being regular challengers for the big prizes. That doesn't mean I want them gone - as I've said consistently for a while, there are a handful of people who can properly take us forward but many, many more who'd take us backwards. And of those who could take us forward, there are some serious moral questions about most.

 

[Legohamster]

Fans are fickle by nature. If you'd asked the same question when we didn't sign a player for a full year, the result would have been very different. Alternatively, when we came that close to winning the league, who would have said no? A week after sacking Pochettino, the split would have been different too.

Truth is, you have to take the long-term view and accept that you don't know everything that's going on. Nobody would argue that we're in a better place now than we were when he took over. All things considered, he's done a good job but he's also made some huge mistakes. Football (and probably the Western world but that's another debate) is going through a transition phase at the moment.

I agree that, on a personal level, I'd rather have Levy than any of the alternatives @Gutter Boy mentions. But he will always be as good as his last transfer window.

I'm in the middle.

Using the not signing a player for a year, was that Levy etc or the manager or both? It's put down as a levy mistake, I have my doubts.

The problem is that Levy etc get blamed for everything, they didn't start Son at Lwb in a cup semi for example, but they are seen as the main reason we don't win things.

He also needs respect for not bowing to the pressure and going for the easy option of mopo in the summer.

Appointing win now managers and not backing them in a win now way, was a massive error.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

City and Chelsea were nowhere near where they are when Levy took over.

And for how long do you make that argument? If we're in the same position in 2040, do you keep saying "well they had a head start on us"? 22 years is enough time to have caught up if you were really serious about doing it.

I'm not bashing ENIC. I think they've been great owners to get us to where we are on and off the pitch. But, looking at the club, they're the biggest blocker at this point, to us being regular challengers for the big prizes. That doesn't mean I want them gone - as I've said consistently for a while, there are a handful of people who can properly take us forward but many, many more who'd take us backwards. And of those who could take us forward, there are some serious moral questions about most.

Chelsea were bought by Abramovich in 2003 so similar time to when Enic bought Spurs, however Chelsea had been spending like maniacs for about 5 - 10 years prior to that, hence why they almost went out of business. So on the pitch they were light years ahead of us, that I’m sure is not even debatable?!

City, well yes, but I’m sure I don’t need to explain this one or why it’s not even close to a fair comparison !?!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

My answer is yes
But I’d love with deeper pockets or ideally some of the value being sold on for a cash injection that could really elevate us

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'm in the middle.

Using the not signing a player for a year, was that Levy etc or the manager or both? It's put down as a levy mistake, I have my doubts.

The problem is that Levy etc get blamed for everything, they didn't start Son at Lwb in a cup semi for example, but they are seen as the main reason we don't win things.

He also needs respect for not bowing to the pressure and going for the easy option of mopo in the summer.

Appointing win now managers and not backing them in a win now way, was a massive error.

I do think Covid had a huge impact on that which we can’t quantify

 

[johnola]

Chelsea and City lol.

They cheated.

Spurs don’t have the money to always be competitive. Enic are trying hard to grow organically but it is hard to catch up when several teams artificially inflate their budgets, whilst several others have multiples of the fan base.

 

[tommysvr]

City and Chelsea were nowhere near where they are when Levy took over.

You didn’t mention them with a straight face, surely?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I do think Covid had a huge impact on that which we can’t quantify

Yeah Covid real game changer, new stadium planning and timescale could not have been foreseen, I think most were happy when we picked Conte and Mourinho as managers and Levy should have realised they had to be backed up by big money.

 

[Legohamster]

I do think Covid had a huge impact on that which we can’t quantify

Fair point, but at the same time other clubs were hit harder and needed to sell

Also it goes back to the argument of signing a few meh players for 5/10 million or going in for one in Skriniar, who could have made a big difference.

We still spent a decent chunk of money that summer.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Chelsea were bought by Abramovich in 2003 so similar time to when Enic bought Spurs, however Chelsea had been spending like maniacs for about 5 - 10 years prior to that, hence why they almost went out of business. So on the pitch they were light years ahead of us, that I’m sure is not even debatable?!

City, well yes, but I’m sure I don’t need to explain this one or why it’s not even close to a fair comparison !?!

Chelsea had won little of consequence until Abramovich took over. Since then they've won 2 CLs, 5 (?) PLs and a bunch of domestic cups. So they are absolute light years ahead of where they were when ENIC took over.

You didn’t mention them with a straight face, surely?

Absolutely I am because, as detestable as those clubs are, they're the benchmark for where we want to be. What they've done is what you have to do to regularly compete for the top prizes as things currently stand. Yeah, it feels unfair and almost immoral. But I don't see that you can get there under ENIC's model which, to be fair to them, has brought a lot of progress and sustainability. ENIC have run the club well and intelligently. Unfortunately, as things stand in the game, I don't believe that's how you get to the top of the tree and stay there.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Chelsea had won little of consequence until Abramovich took over. Since then they've won 2 CLs, 5 (?) PLs and a bunch of domestic cups. So they are absolute light years ahead of where they were when ENIC took over.

Absolutely I am because, as detestable as those clubs are, they're the benchmark for where we want to be. What they've done is what you have to do to regularly compete for the top prizes as things currently stand. Yeah, it feels unfair and almost immoral. But I don't see that you can get there under ENIC's model which, to be fair to them, has brought a lot of progress and sustainability. ENIC have run the club well and intelligently. Unfortunately, as things stand in the game, I don't believe that's how you get to the top of the tree and stay there.

I think it’s actually quite refreshing that you are open about wanting an oil barren, state, cheat mode, etc etc model. Many people try and say that’s not what they want and then just put completely unrealistic expectations on ENIC to compete with those clubs.

It’s not for me at all though, I’ve no interest in that and if we were ever bought by one and spent like them I think my love for the game/Spurs would diminish massively.

 

[tommysvr]

Chelsea had won little of consequence until Abramovich took over. Since then they've won 2 CLs, 5 (?) PLs and a bunch of domestic cups. So they are absolute light years ahead of where they were when ENIC took over.

Absolutely I am because, as detestable as those clubs are, they're the benchmark for where we want to be. What they've done is what you have to do to regularly compete for the top prizes as things currently stand. Yeah, it feels unfair and almost immoral. But I don't see that you can get there under ENIC's model which, to be fair to them, has brought a lot of progress and sustainability. ENIC have run the club well and intelligently. Unfortunately, as things stand in the game, I don't believe that's how you get to the top of the tree and stay there.

Wanting to compete with them and then using them as the benchmark for where we are two totally different things though. If you’re comparing what we’ve achieved in 20 years with ENIC with what they’ve achieved then you’re in absolute dreamland. Why is it ENIC’s fault that they’re not an oil state? What are they supposed to do about it?

And if you want to be run like Chelsea and City…why not just go and support them? If you’re so desperate to win that you’ll sell your soul that much you might as well just change teams in my opinion.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think it’s actually quite refreshing that you are open about wanting an oil barren, state, cheat mode, etc etc model. Many people try and say that’s not what they want and then just put completely unrealistic expectations on ENIC to compete with those clubs.

It’s not for me at all though, I’ve no interest in that and if we were ever bought by one and spent like them I think my love for the game/Spurs would diminish massively.

You're not reading what I've written.

City and Chelsea were nowhere near where they are when Levy took over.

And for how long do you make that argument? If we're in the same position in 2040, do you keep saying "well they had a head start on us"? 22 years is enough time to have caught up if you were really serious about doing it.

I'm not bashing ENIC. I think they've been great owners to get us to where we are on and off the pitch. But, looking at the club, they're the biggest blocker at this point, to us being regular challengers for the big prizes. That doesn't mean I want them gone - as I've said consistently for a while, there are a handful of people who can properly take us forward but many, many more who'd take us backwards. And of those who could take us forward, there are some serious moral questions about most.

My point is that we're on a playing field that isn't level so it's very hard to bash ENIC too much for me even if they don't get us to where we really want to be. I think ENIC can do better on wages but overall, I think Levy has done pretty much as good a job realistically as the ownership model will allow him to.

The fact I don't think ENIC (or Ange) can win us big prizes does not mean I want them gone. I've just got a lower ceiling than many on my expectations about where we can get to.

 

[alekaras]

No one is perfect and Levy has made his fair share of mistakes. But on the whole he has consistently moved us forward. One thing that people need to understand, however, is that the closer you get to the top, the more difficult it is to get to the next level. Getting from an average finish of 13th-14th to an average finish of 9th-10th is easier and takes less time than getting from an average finish of 9th-10th to 5th-6th, which in turn is easier and take less time than getting from an average finish of 5th-6th to 2nd-3rd. And when you are at or near the top you have more room to drop off than to go higher. The important thing is that you are always within that group of 3-4 teams that can challenge for titles. We were there for a spell and we dropped off (and I'll get to why below), but even to have established us as one of the top 5-6 clubs in the league and kept us there for the past 15 years with no money doping, is an achievement not to be scoffed at.

In my mind Levy made a couple of mistakes. First of all, he didn't put a cutting edge football operations structure in place sooner and take a step back from the football side of things. Had he done that around the same time Poch was appointed, we'd be in a different place right now. Secondly (and this is probably the result of the first mistake), he appointed Mourinho and Conte in the hope they would end the trophy curse, which was very reactionary and not strategic at all. The Mou and Conte appointments also set us back. A rebuild should have started in the 19/20 season and not the 23/24 season. But it is what it is and I can see why Mou and Conte were appointed: fans were clamoring for a trophy and trophy managers were appointed with the assumption by Levy that the playing personnel was at the required standards. I'm guessing the thinking was that we just got to a CL final the year before Mou was appointed, so it had to be good enough for at least a League Cup, no? Just needed the "winning" manager touch. With Conte it was the same and a huge investment was made, but he was totally the wrong manager to spend money for.

So here we are today. We ended up taking 2 steps backward to move 3 forward, but that's how it is in many walks of life and business. What's important is that we are constantly inching forward and we are. Maybe not at the speed that some would like, but in today's football environment and with the financial regulations in place and yet to come giant leaps are no longer possible. We are, however, extremely well positioned to take advantage of the new football financial landscape thanks to ENIC. If someone had told us 5-10 years ago that we would be able to outspend clubs like Barcelona, we'd be laughing. Yet here we are and with Ange we've only just begun to put our stamp on the football side of things too.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Wanting to compete with them and then using them as the benchmark for where we are two totally different things though. If you’re comparing what we’ve achieved in 20 years with ENIC with what they’ve achieved then you’re in absolute dreamland. Why is it ENIC’s fault that they’re not an oil state? What are they supposed to do about it?

And if you want to be run like Chelsea and City…why not just go and support them? If you’re so desperate to win that you’ll sell your soul that much you might as well just change teams in my opinion.

I'm not desperate to win - I'm quite comfortable with where we are at the moment. There are a lot of posters here who think we're on the path to competing at the very top of the league. I don't believe that and I think we've a few things blocking us. I don't necessarily want to be run like City or Chelsea and have said that above.

In terms of ENIC - what can they do? I've repeatedly said, even within their ownership model, they could do a bit more on wages IMO. They've actually done pretty well on transfer fees over the last 3-4 years. But we're consistently the lowest spenders on wages (as a % of turnover) and that impedes our ability to go for really top players. And generally, top players bring you trophies.

On a general point, and it doesn't upset me, but on a message board like this, it's not great to say "just go and support Chelsea or City". I'd rather lick my toilet clean.

 

[alekaras]

My answer is yes
But I’d love with deeper pockets or ideally some of the value being sold on for a cash injection that could really elevate us

Deeper pockets won't cut it these days. Clubs need to be self-sustainable. If Bezos buys Wolves, for example, it will still take them years to be able to compete at the top level, if they even get to that. He can't just do what Abramovich and the Emiratis did with Chelsea and City. He will still need to build up the club organically like ENIC did with Spurs and that takes time. Might be able to do it a little bit faster, but it will still be at least a 10-year project.

 

[tommysvr]

I'm not desperate to win - I'm quite comfortable with where we are at the moment. There are a lot of posters here who think we're on the path to competing at the very top of the league. I don't believe that and I think we've a few things blocking us. I don't necessarily want to be run like City or Chelsea and have said that above.

In terms of ENIC - what can they do? I've repeatedly said, even within their ownership model, they could do a bit more on wages IMO. They've actually done pretty well on transfer fees over the last 3-4 years. But we're consistently the lowest spenders on wages (as a % of turnover) and that impedes our ability to go for really top players. And generally, top players bring you trophies.

On a general point, and it doesn't upset me, but on a message board like this, it's not great to say "just go and support Chelsea or City". I'd rather lick my toilet clean.

Sorry mate your posts confused the brick out of me at times. If you’re comfortable with where we are, why did you even bring up Chelsea and City and use them as the benchmark to show why we’re not actually competing (despite all the cup finals, semi finals, 2nd, 3rd finishes etc)? Once again, you seem to want it both ways…

 

[Yiddo]

One of the most well ran clubs in the world, got one of the best stadiums in the world, constantly compete for a Champions League place and have been to various different finals and semi finals, i think we are definitely in safe hands. No chairman is perfect and i get why people get frustrated with Levy’s negotiation tactic but we could be so much worse off. I think Levy out fans ignore a lot as it doesn’t fit their argument, every manager has been backed with a sufficient amount of money and its been down to poor recruitment as to why we haven’t taken that next step up. I’m fully behind Levy, when we do eventually become successful we can sit here and say we done it the right way. We are still punching above our weight if you look at the teams around us and i think people forget that due to how far we have come under Poch etc. It would actually be a proper underdog story if we were to win the big prize.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Sorry mate your posts confused the brick out of me at times. If you’re comfortable with where we are, why did you even bring up Chelsea and City and use them as the benchmark to show why we’re not actually competing (despite all the cup finals, semi finals, 2nd, 3rd finishes etc)? Once again, you seem to want it both ways…

I'll try articulate it a bit better. The original post was "do you think we're in the right hands".

If our aim is to regularly compete at the top of English football, sadly, no I don't. That's largely for reasons outside of their control and might change if clubs are forced to run sustainably. But, right now, the cold hard truth is that we aren't set up to really be a big player IMO.

However, football isn't just about winning trophies. As Ange said yesterday, and I paraphrase a bit, "clubs aren't just the embodiment of what we do. They should be about the community and act almost as an extension of family". And, if that's more important than winning, which I think to me it is, ENIC and Ange are doing more than well enough for me.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

We did have to tighten the belt for a period, to not lose our pants, but I think we are beginning to reap the rewards for that now. We have good people running the football side, and we've been pretty pro-active in the transfer market, getting in the right players, and getting them fairly early.
The future is bright, the future is Lilywhite!

Whodathoughtit......you might have to suffer for a while to climb Mount Everest.

The irony being we didn't actually have to suffer too much during the toughest period, largely thanks to Poch.