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The Official 2022/23 Premier League Thread

DubSpur said:
Match fixing?? Gambling is not match-fixing, you're making a big reach there.

I doubt very much a player thinks that it's ok to bet against his own team, but it's like an alcoholic, they know that the next drink is doing them serious damage but they can't help it.
Footballers are humans, they have the same weaknesses as the rest of us, some will have addictive personalities like the general population. The big difference is that with the money they earn, the circles/parties etc that they are going to be exposed to, they are going to be exposed to a lot more temptations. Some won't have the self-control or people around them to tell them that they are doing wrong and suddenly they are on a slippery slope whether it's drink, drugs or gambling.

Think a little bit of understanding and empathy wouldn't go amiss on your part.
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Betting against your own team could easily be categorised as match fixing.
 
Kandi1977 said:
Betting against your own team could easily be categorised as match fixing.
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He wasn’t playing, there’s no indication that anyone else in the team knew of his bets, it wasn’t match fixing. If it was there would be a bigger probe into it with the police involved.
 
Kandi1977 said:
Betting against your own team could easily be categorised as match fixing.
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I certainly would not want players involved or otherwise punting against the side they represent to lose

The illness side of gambling should and has been taken into consideration, his ban is lenient which is good as I think it takes that into account, the clubs sticking by him and hopefully its a wake up and he gets the help he needs.
 
DubSpur said:
Match fixing?? Gambling is not match-fixing, you're making a big reach there.

I doubt very much a player thinks that it's ok to bet against his own team, but it's like an alcoholic, they know that the next drink is doing them serious damage but they can't help it.
Footballers are humans, they have the same weaknesses as the rest of us, some will have addictive personalities like the general population. The big difference is that with the money they earn, the circles/parties etc that they are going to be exposed to, they are going to be exposed to a lot more temptations. Some won't have the self-control or people around them to tell them that they are doing wrong and suddenly they are on a slippery slope whether it's drink, drugs or gambling.

Think a little bit of understanding and empathy wouldn't go amiss on your part.
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I would class betting on your own team to lose as match fixing, and what I read suggested that he was playing in those games but there seems to be a lack of clarity on that point.

Your points are valid and entirely fair enough, I've been clear throughout that I can wrap my head around being addicted to gambling even though it's never been my vice, the puzzling thing is choosing to gamble in a manner that puts your career at risk. As for having the right people around you, as an adult you do have to have a bearing of what is right / wrong in terms and I really can't see how what Toney did can be described as a mistake but I'm probably stating to go round in circles on the subject.

It also seems like a lenient ban considering various time frames of previous betting bans.

As for a lack of empathy, it's not my intention to come across as overly judgemental, no doubt Ivan is beating himself up about it and I hope he gets the help he needs. Addiction is a nightmare. I do have sympathy for him but I openly think I would have more if he had gambling issues unrelated to football, it just seems to be a common sense issue that has led to his ban. Being a footballer in the top flight is such a dream job for millions and to jeopardize it in such a manner, it's a headscratcher.


Apologies for my response to Johnola and Baleforce if they come back to the thread also, it was probably a tad OTT / unnecessary as I had reached that rather easily triggered zone of drunkenness where the filter of "should I actually say that / type that" goes fully out of the window and that can have a habit of making possibly fruitful discussion less productive!
 
spurspinter1 said:
I would class betting on your own team to lose as match fixing, and what I read suggested that he was playing in those games but there seems to be a lack of clarity on that point.

Your points are valid and entirely fair enough, I've been clear throughout that I can wrap my head around being addicted to gambling even though it's never been my vice, the puzzling thing is choosing to gamble in a manner that puts your career at risk. As for having the right people around you, as an adult you do have to have a bearing of what is right / wrong in terms and I really can't see how what Toney did can be described as a mistake but I'm probably stating to go round in circles on the subject.
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I think regardless, if you are in an area of influence in and around the squad then its certainly an area to be answered. Its like the anti doping laws, they are straight down the line, you are caught with anything in your system its your responsibility, no gambling on football as a footballer means no gambling, its effectively treated the same.

I have known two gambling addicts and unfortunately the circumstances are the same to a footballer choosing to jeopardise his career, its what happens in the grips of addiction. One lost his wife and home and the other came close to losing his home but for another mate to bail him out but effectively that mate now has the place as part investment to help him out. Its grim and there is alot of the thrill of losing and getting to the bottom as much as winning that is part of it. Bad news like any addition
 
Grays_1890 said:
I certainly would not want players involved or otherwise punting against the side they represent to lose

The illness side of gambling should and has been taken into consideration, his ban is lenient which is good as I think it takes that into account, the clubs sticking by him and hopefully its a wake up and he gets the help he needs.
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This is where I'm perhaps coming off as harsh, I do agree with the second paragraph and I hope everyone in the world gets the help they need with any illness / addiction but a part of me does think that anyone breaking any rule could just claim to be addicted to whatever they were doing.

It's a slight tangent but on my side there's a bit of bitterness as so many people have the same struggles but don't have access to the funds that a top flight footballer have which enable them to get professional help, it shouldn't take being caught to be the catalyst to getting help. I not suggesting all real life problems disappear when you have that kind of money, as Dub said they're humans and I get that but it's like the amount of drink driving incidents, I'm fairly certain that you can afford an Uber if you're earning something somewhere between 30 / 100 k a week..
 
spurspinter1 said:
This is where I'm perhaps coming off as harsh, I do agree with the second paragraph and I hope everyone in the world gets the help they need with any illness / addiction but a part of me does think that anyone breaking any rule could just claim to be addicted to whatever they were doing.

It's a slight tangent but on my side there's a bit of bitterness as so many people have the same struggles but don't have access to the funds that a top flight footballer have which enable them to get professional help, it shouldn't take being caught to be the catalyst to getting help. I not suggesting all real life problems disappear when you have that kind of money, as Dub said they're humans and I get that but it's like the amount of drink driving incidents, I'm fairly certain that you can afford an Uber if you're earning something somewhere between 30 / 100 k a week..
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Yeh, the drink driving element infuriates me TBH.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think regardless, if you are in an area of influence in and around the squad then its certainly an area to be answered. Its like the anti doping laws, they are straight down the line, you are caught with anything in your system its your responsibility, no gambling on football as a footballer means no gambling, its effectively treated the same.

I have known two gambling addicts and unfortunately the circumstances are the same to a footballer choosing to jeopardise his career, its what happens in the grips of addiction. One lost his wife and home and the other came close to losing his home but for another mate to bail him out but effectively that mate now has the place as part investment to help him out. Its grim and there is alot of the thrill of losing and getting to the bottom as much as winning that is part of it. Bad news like any addition
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Hope in those two cases things have improved for the people you know if at all possible.

Where I think I'm getting stuck on (and it's going further away from the realms of football) is when bad decisions become classified as an addiction, I don't know if there is an objective marker for it but I'm guessing in a medical sense there has to be. And it seems a lot easier to get that kind of diagnosis if you have money, whereas people with near to nothing who lose it would just be told "that's life" as they don't have the funds for support.

I'm just thinking out loud and possibly dragging the thread too far off topic but hope it makes some kind of sense!
 
spurspinter1 said:
Hope in those two cases things have improved for the people you know if at all possible.

Where I think I'm getting stuck on (and it's going further away from the realms of football) is when bad decisions become classified as an addiction, I don't know if there is an objective marker for it but I'm guessing in a medical sense there has to be. And it seems a lot easier to get that kind of diagnosis if you have money, whereas people with near to nothing who lose it would just be told "that's life" as they don't have the funds for support.

I'm just thinking out loud and possibly dragging the thread too far off topic but hope it makes some kind of sense!
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Yeh, the rock bottom part they talk about in addition terms certainly rang true with both

As for your other comments they are fair points IMO and as someone who is 7 months without a drink for a strict diet I can't relate the same to booze as I often think "when do people know". They talk about the not being able to go a day area, be it drink or drugs, maybe its the same with gambling? My dad worked with Mersons brother and the well known stories of gambling on absolutely anything at all times of the day were true and more apparently, gambling on what bead of rain would roll down the window type stuff. Mad really
 
DubSpur said:
Match fixing?? Gambling is not match-fixing, you're making a big reach there.

I doubt very much a player thinks that it's ok to bet against his own team, but it's like an alcoholic, they know that the next drink is doing them serious damage but they can't help it.
Footballers are humans, they have the same weaknesses as the rest of us, some will have addictive personalities like the general population. The big difference is that with the money they earn, the circles/parties etc that they are going to be exposed to, they are going to be exposed to a lot more temptations. Some won't have the self-control or people around them to tell them that they are doing wrong and suddenly they are on a slippery slope whether it's drink, drugs or gambling.

Think a little bit of understanding and empathy wouldn't go amiss on your part.
Click to expand...

We know they are human, most of them think they're gods.
 
spurspinter1 said:
I would class betting on your own team to lose as match fixing, and what I read suggested that he was playing in those games but there seems to be a lack of clarity on that point.

Your points are valid and entirely fair enough, I've been clear throughout that I can wrap my head around being addicted to gambling even though it's never been my vice, the puzzling thing is choosing to gamble in a manner that puts your career at risk. As for having the right people around you, as an adult you do have to have a bearing of what is right / wrong in terms and I really can't see how what Toney did can be described as a mistake but I'm probably stating to go round in circles on the subject.

It also seems like a lenient ban considering various time frames of previous betting bans.

As for a lack of empathy, it's not my intention to come across as overly judgemental, no doubt Ivan is beating himself up about it and I hope he gets the help he needs. Addiction is a nightmare. I do have sympathy for him but I openly think I would have more if he had gambling issues unrelated to football, it just seems to be a common sense issue that has led to his ban. Being a footballer in the top flight is such a dream job for millions and to jeopardize it in such a manner, it's a headscratcher.


Apologies for my response to Johnola and Baleforce if they come back to the thread also, it was probably a tad OTT / unnecessary as I had reached that rather easily triggered zone of drunkenness where the filter of "should I actually say that / type that" goes fully out of the window and that can have a habit of making possibly fruitful discussion less productive!
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He wasn't playing in those games, it was clarified.

Would you have more sympathy for an alcoholic if he only drank vodka instead of whiskey? It's the same thing as asking a gambling addict to not gamble on football, he's going to gamble on what's in front of him. If he had a couple hundred bets on football you can be fairly sure that he's got 1000s of bets on other sports. There is no common sense when addiction is involved, it goes out the window.
 
DubSpur said:
He wasn't playing in those games, it was clarified.

Would you have more sympathy for an alcoholic if he only drank vodka instead of whiskey? It's the same thing as asking a gambling addict to not gamble on football, he's going to gamble on what's in front of him. If he had a couple hundred bets on football you can be fairly sure that he's got 1000s of bets on other sports. There is no common sense when addiction is involved, it goes out the window.
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Okay on the not playing in those games point of it was confirmed as such, there's still a moral issue there, does it make it okay as a Dr has diagnosed it as an illness? I might be dwelling on the wrong points but I have suspicions that it's easier to get a potential medical "excuse" if you can pay for it, as cynical / paranoid it may sound.

Not trying to be pedantic but the analogy only works if in the alcoholic's profession there was a rule against drinking vodka and whiskey was fine and the alcoholic still drank vodka anyway knowing fulwell it would be problematic.

That's a fair point on the potential of him making thousands of bets on other sports that aren't public knowledge though. Like I said to Grays, it's about where the line is for the culmination of poor decisions to be given the label of an illness rather than just individual bad choices and that might be a tad deep of a question for the last day of the premier league.

The main point is him getting the help if he needs it, but it doesn't change that he has let the club and himself down by breaking clear rules that are common knowledge. I'm not sure if the suggestion is that addicts can just do anything and it's not okay to judge them because of the label of addiction being applied as a cause.

I appreciate that as you say, common sense can go out of the window with addiction so I'm aware that I could still be looking at it from the wrong perspective and I'm really not looking to be overly critical of people who struggle with it, it's just a shame in this instance that getting caught and losing a chunk of his career was what it took to seek help.
 
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Have a funny feeling. Leicester will hang on for their win FT whistle blown but Everton are still playing and end up scoring a winner in the 97th minute so send Leicester down when they thought they were safe
 
paxtonwolf said:
Have a funny feeling. Leicester will hang on for their win FT whistle blown but Everton are still playing and end up scoring a winner in the 97th minute so send Leicester down when they thought they were safe
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If Carlsberg did last-game-of-season relegation matches….
 
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