The 'If You Still Need to Purge Yourself Of Ange' Thread

[veryoldspur]

Again, I’m asking people to actually look at the results in the 23/24 season after the first Chelsea game. I don’t get the sense that it was us having been figured out at all. There was a tough 4 games after that Chelsea match, then a tough 4 game stretch at the end of the season with difficult games one after the other. And then a perfectly fine stretch in between that where we won plenty of games.

It doesn’t read to me like a blueprint being refined over time against us. It just reads like a manager in his first season getting 5th, one with some highs and lows and some middling periods thrown in.

The next season, we have in theory a better squad, a deeper squad, are would operate in an entirely different context. That squad then gets decimated by injuries.

I’m really open to the idea that Ange may have never led us to the promised land. I am even open to the idea that he may have been bottom half with us the next season. Especially if he was so uncompromising as to not adjust to circumstances, and being insistent on playing largely his way despite the players he has available. I just wish, on the other side, there would be an acknowledgment that maybe with normalised injuries he actually might have done pretty damn well with us in the third season. Because he, like any manager who has that uncompromising belief in his system, might actually do very well when he can play those pieces.

Because the reality is, we just don’t know either way. Obviously the trend after the first 11 games of his first season points down. And if you want to say that is that, no further analysis, then fine. But like, the outright refusal to allow any other form of context into the discussion beyond the downward trend itself really grates.

The way we played there would have never been a time when we didn't have masses of injuries. He was out of his depth and learning how to manage a squad at the top level. Unfortunately he wasn't learning very quickly, and it may have been years before we looked any good. I stick by what I say, the Ange years were dark years, and I think he was the worst manager we have ever had. Thanks for the trophy Ange, now go to a club at a lower level and enjoy yourself

 

[thfcsteff]

This thread will be so much better for your agreement. Now let's get everyone else to agree on it. Then we can all sit around in a circle & sing kum ba yah

I'm in for a chorus!

 

[kb 1984]

I'm in for a chorus!

I had you down as sitting in the middle of the circle conducting the whole thing

 

[braineclipse]

That would depend on your definition of succeed. If Ange succeeded so did Ramos. I ask the question, did he leave us a better team than when he joined, and in my opinion he didn't. I hated the football under that man, and whilst I will thank him for a trophy, I see him as a failure

Better team - absolutely.
Better results in the league - no.

Him leaving us with a better team is only partially on him, mostly to do with recruitment. But he had his part in that and managing us at a time of heavy focus on youth and the future for sure impacted his job.

The team is way better now than when he took over. If that had been true under Mourinho and Conte we wouldn't have been in the mess we were in when Ange took over.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Better team - absolutely.
Better results in the league - no.

Him leaving us with a better team is only partially on him, mostly to do with recruitment. But he had his part in that and managing us at a time of heavy focus on youth and the future for sure impacted his job.

The team is way better now than when he took over. If that had been true under Mourinho and Conte we wouldn't have been in the mess we were in when Ange took over.

We only have a better team in terms of fan perception, ultimately, the only true measure of whether a team is good or not is results and performances. Both of which have been in decline. I don't think many opposition or neutral fans would consider us to be a good team. Even those that watched the Europa final pretty much saw it as a very poor final, between two poor teams with a very low quality on display.

We were a better team under Conte. Kane obviously a big part of that, but we have gone backwards since then, not forwards. Some of our play both attacking and defending have literally been laughable. I mean two of our own attackers practically knocking each other out running on to attack the same ball. Comical defending. Gaps all over the pitch. Increasing sideways passing without ability to create chances, even against likes of Tamworth.

The players have a lot to prove in terms of demonstrating top 6 PL quality.

 

[RunTMC]

I have a genuine question for those that believe Ange would have turned it around in the PL in season 3.

How do you see him setting up the team? Would he go back to the style of the first 10 games? Front foot, possession based, high press, high line? Or the more pragmatic EL style of happy to cede possession, defend the 18 yard line, more compact defensive solidity but still able to score off fewer chances.

Both styles have shown success. Or perhaps a tweak to either?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I have a genuine question for those that believe Ange would have turned it around in the PL in season 3.

How do you see him setting up the team? Would he go back to the style of the first 10 games? Front foot, possession based, high press, high line? Or the more pragmatic EL style of happy to cede possession, defend the 18 yard line, more compact defensive solidity but still able to score off fewer chances.

Both styles have shown success. Or perhaps a tweak to either?

Honestly I think just getting back to something approaching the start of season two, but turning more games into wins. Clearly there was a conditioning issue which has been discussed - the failures in pre season, but underlying numbers were good and finishing was terrible. I’m sure there would have been some small adaptations here and there but I don’t think it’s any more drastic than that. I think just going back to what I always say - deeper squad, normalised injuries, more experience of winning. I think we would’ve had a run back into the top 6 at a minimum.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

The Purge continues....Week 3.

 

[veryoldspur]

Better team - absolutely.
Better results in the league - no.

Him leaving us with a better team is only partially on him, mostly to do with recruitment. But he had his part in that and managing us at a time of heavy focus on youth and the future for sure impacted his job.

The team is way better now than when he took over. If that had been true under Mourinho and Conte we wouldn't have been in the mess we were in when Ange took over.

My point exactly, the team is better, but the performances weren't. Ange could take Liverpool down, that's how bl00dy awful he is

 

[thfcsteff]

The Purge continues....Week 3.

Some people thought this thread was unnecessary, but the proof of the pudding, etc, etc...

 

[braineclipse]

My point exactly, the team is better, but the performances weren't. Ange could take Liverpool down, that's how bl00dy awful he is

You said he didn't leave us a better team. I said for me he absolutely did. You say that's your point.

I think you know very well what I meant and that what I said wasn't your point. And you just felt a need to call Ange bloody awful again.

 

[braineclipse]

We only have a better team in terms of fan perception, ultimately, the only true measure of whether a team is good or not is results and performances. Both of which have been in decline. I don't think many opposition or neutral fans would consider us to be a good team. Even those that watched the Europa final pretty much saw it as a very poor final, between two poor teams with a very low quality on display.

We were a better team under Conte. Kane obviously a big part of that, but we have gone backwards since then, not forwards. Some of our play both attacking and defending have literally been laughable. I mean two of our own attackers practically knocking each other out running on to attack the same ball. Comical defending. Gaps all over the pitch. Increasing sideways passing without ability to create chances, even against likes of Tamworth.

The players have a lot to prove in terms of demonstrating top 6 PL quality.

The players have things to prove for sure. But the team/squad is in much better shape now than when he took over. Sure that's perception. You may have a different perception, but I fundamentally disagree that the only way to evaluate a player team or squad is results and performances of the team.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

The players have things to prove for sure. But the team/squad is in much better shape now than when he took over. Sure that's perception. You may have a different perception, but I fundamentally disagree that the only way to evaluate a player team or squad is results and performances of the team.

I'd agree the squad is more rounded and has more depth. There are no obvious holes in the squad in terms of there are two competent players for every position in a 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and even a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2.

I do think we lack that top tier quality over 2 or 3 positions we had previously. We have some younger players that might step up, but the days of King/Modric/Bale/VDV, Lloris/Vertonghen/Eriksen/Son/Kane are gone for now....

 

[braineclipse]

I'd agree the squad is more rounded and has more depth. There are no obvious holes in the squad in terms of there are two competent players for every position in a 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and even a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2.

I do think we lack that top tier quality over 2 or 3 positions we had previously. We have some younger players that might step up, but the days of King/Modric/Bale/VDV, Lloris/Vertonghen/Eriksen/Son/Kane are gone for now....

I agree. And we need that. The most likely path to that player is to develop a player either from the academy or a player signed while fairly young.

On that front too we're in a much more likely situation for that to happen than we were two years ago. Ange has done his part in that with younger players, but mostly on the recruitment. Ange has carried some of the weigh of that long term thinking during his stay here though. Not getting ready made players, but younger players that will hopefully be better 2-3 years from now than they will be next season and were last season.

 

[veryoldspur]

You said he didn't leave us a better team. I said for me he absolutely did. You say that's your point.

I think you know very well what I meant and that what I said wasn't your point. And you just felt a need to call Ange bloody awful again.

You didn't read my post properly. Yes, by the time Ange left the team was better, however our performances were worse. That goes down to one thing, THE MANAGER. I am 100% convinced any other manager in the Premiership would have finished higher than we did with Ange

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I agree. And we need that. The most likely path to that player is to develop a player either from the academy or a player signed while fairly young.

On that front too we're in a much more likely situation for that to happen than we were two years ago. Ange has done his part in that with younger players, but mostly on the recruitment. Ange has carried some of the weigh of that long term thinking during his stay here though. Not getting ready made players, but younger players that will hopefully be better 2-3 years from now than they will be next season and were last season.

I am not sure Ange shouldered that burden entirely by choice. He clearly wanted Gallagher for example and yes he wanted Gray as well but the minutes given to likes of Bergvall and Gray were due to lack of choice not by design. Hopefully will stand them in good stead from a rapid evolution. I think CB is a very good learning for a DM actually and if Gray develops into the kind of DM that can easily drop to create a 3 or 5 like Dier or Wanyama used to it will be a real positive.