The Defensive Midfielder

[parklane1]

For the picture to work you need to have shown some reasoning/evidence as to why Dier is playing as a DM - ie you (the man in the pic) showing the others (the horse) something which shows Dier irrefuetably plays as a DM (the water)

Most fans can see he is playing the defensive M/F player if they open their eyes. Its just some refuse to see it.

 

[billyiddo]

Most fans can see he is playing the defensive M/F player if they open their eyes. Its just some refuse to see it.

Well that's just it Parklane, a lot of people don't see that, hence the discussion - in fact the only objective evidence produced in here seems to suggest he's not playing as a DM at all but more similar to how Bentaleb/Mason were last season - where's that pic of the horse again?

And note im actually on the fence here, i thought he was playing as a DM but having read through the discussion here now im not so sure - you see im not someone who ignores everything which contradicts my opinion

 

[scaramanga]

Most fans can see he is playing the defensive M/F player if they open their eyes. Its just some refuse to see it.

Yet all the objective evidence points to him playing a very similar role to Bentaleb and Mason last season.

 

[milo]

Updated with a couple of games more for each player. Touches to follow.

Player 1

Player 2

Player 3

 

[milo]

Touches. Players and games in the same order.

Player 1

Player 2

Player 3

 

[milo]

Anyone care to guess which is Dier, Bentaleb and Mason?

 

[parklane1]

Well that's just it Parklane, a lot of people don't see that, hence the discussion - in fact the only objective evidence produced in here seems to suggest he's not playing as a DM at all but more similar to how Bentaleb/Mason were last season - where's that pic of the horse again?

And note im actually on the fence here, i thought he was playing as a DM but having read through the discussion here now im not so sure - you see im not someone who ignores everything which contradicts my opinion

Well we will have to disagree, I have seen him play with my own eyes every game this season and i can see for myself what he does on the field. As I have already said some get too caught up in what a player is called, now it does not bother me if he is called a DM, keeper ( as someone suggested yesterday) double pivot, black box or the sodding xmas fairy, he is the one who plays the defensive shield and its sodding obvious when you watch the games.

 

[scaramanga]

Well we will have to disagree, I have seen him play with my own eyes every game this season and i can see for myself what he does on the field. As I have already said some get too caught up in what a player is called, now it does not bother me if he is called a DM, keeper ( as someone suggested yesterday) double pivot, black box or the sodding xmas fairy, he is the one who plays the defensive shield and its sodding obvious when you watch the games.

When someone looks at me and earnestly says, “I know what I saw,” I am fond of replying, “No you don’t.” You have a distorted and constructed memory of a distorted and constructed perception, both of which are subservient to whatever narrative your brain is operating under.

Essentially, your brain will always filter what you see and/or remember through the filter of what you already believe to be true.

That's why objective information is so much more reliable.

 

[parklane1]

I should thank you really as you generally make me laugh.

 

[milo]

@parklane1 Scara isn't making this up, we are all prone to interpreting information in a way that confirms our beliefs. It is called confirmation bias, there is loads out there on it but I just cribbed this from Wikipedia:

Confirmation bias

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[Note 1][1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning.[2]People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance(when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

A series of experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Explanations for the observed biases include wishful thinking and the limited human capacity to process information. Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.

Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in political and organizational contexts.[3][4][Note 2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

[parklane1]

@parklane1 Scara isn't making this up, we are all prone to interpreting information in a way that confirms our beliefs. It is called confirmation bias, there is loads out there on it but I just cribbed this from Wikipedia:

Confirmation bias

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[Note 1][1] It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning.[2]People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance(when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).

A series of experiments in the 1960s suggested that people are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Later work re-interpreted these results as a tendency to test ideas in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and ignoring alternatives. In certain situations, this tendency can bias people's conclusions. Explanations for the observed biases include wishful thinking and the limited human capacity to process information. Another explanation is that people show confirmation bias because they are weighing up the costs of being wrong, rather than investigating in a neutral, scientific way.

Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence. Poor decisions due to these biases have been found in political and organizational contexts.[3][4][Note 2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

I know all about that and know its not a figment of his imagination, but to try and suggest ( not saying anyone in particular is) that nothing seen with our own eyes is really happening is silly at best. Unless of course someone REALLY is saying that the eyes can not be trusted in ALL cases.

( is the tendency to search) notice it does not say its a certainty.

 

[milo]

I know all about that and know its not a figment of his imagination, but to try and suggest ( not saying anyone in particular is) that nothing seen with our own eyes is really happening is silly at best. Unless of course someone REALLY is saying that the eyes can not be trusted in ALL cases.

( is the tendency to search) notice it does not say its a certainty.

I don't think that anyone has said that we should disregard all observation, just that we should be aware that our eyes and memory lie to us.

I know that you are not the biggest fan of stats (or at least stat bores) but are there any readily available stats that you think would demonstrate that Dier is currently playing the role that you say he is? I am happy to pull them out for the same games and post them in anonymised form.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What's actually true here is that Dier is operating in the same space as where Mason and Bentelab played last season - hardly a sunrise as he has taken one of their spaces

What he is doing better than they did is the defensive side of a midfielders role and in particularly the covering role

He is also passing the ball better than maybe we give him credit for and its influential passing. He is also scoring more goals than what mason and Bentelab did (he has our scored both of them combined I believe taking into account his goals from last season)

So in effect his is a bit of a conundrum. What he has also done Incredibly well is work with his midfield partner to create a genuine balance in the two, arguably whoever plays there with him plays as the best pairing in the league at the moment.

What we should embrace is the fact that Dier so far has been the best player in the league, not just Spurs. Vardy is clearly running him close and I sure silva and Aguero would if they kept fit. Ozil is having a big season but hasn't hasn't actually improved their results so is behind Dier IMO.

He has to remain in midfield now for me as he can be world class there, although he could possibly become world class in defence too obviously

 

[AuroRaman]

Through considered research/analysis and solid game-viewing, I deduce that Dier is in fact playing football, on a pitch, rather well.

 

[JerusalemMan]

None of us knows what differences there have been in the specific instructions given by Poch to each player as he knows their strengths and limitations better than any of us.
And whether those instructions have varied greatly from game to game.
Some of what we see and judge players on may actually be data and evidence to judge Poch on.

 

[Pirate55]

Anyone care to guess which is Dier, Bentaleb and Mason?

These are certainly interesting and made me (somewhat) rethink my position . They are not as clearly defined as I was expecting. Dier is almost certainly Player 1. The real giveaway however is not how deep he plays but the fact that he goes into the other box for all dead balls. Player 2 is probably Mason as there are more forward runs although in one game he seemed to play the whole game in his own half - more like I would expect of Dier.

Confusing or what?

However, what the heat maps don't show is the players running beyond Kane. Mason does this occasionally, Bentaleb rarely and Dier never. Therein lies the key to the different roles they play IMO.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Quite amazing - and an absolute tribute to what Pochettino is doing - to have such depth at midfield. It looked like Mason and Bentaleb were the business long term and I wasn't the least bit unhappy. Now we have them as alternatives. Have to say, though, Alli is special enough that we will be challenged to hang onto him.

While we're not short of options, something tells me Spurs will dig in and resist any offers for him.

 

[milo]

What's actually true here is that Dier is operating in the same space as where Mason and Bentelab played last season - hardly a sunrise as he has taken one of their spaces

What he is doing better than they did is the defensive side of a midfielders role and in particularly the covering role

He is also passing the ball better than maybe we give him credit for and its influential passing. He is also scoring more goals than what mason and Bentelab did (he has our scored both of them combined I believe taking into account his goals from last season)

So in effect his is a bit of a conundrum. What he has also done Incredibly well is work with his midfield partner to create a genuine balance in the two, arguably whoever plays there with him plays as the best pairing in the league at the moment.

What we should embrace is the fact that Dier so far has been the best player in the league, not just Spurs. Vardy is clearly running him close and I sure silva and Aguero would if they kept fit. Ozil is having a big season but hasn't hasn't actually improved their results so is behind Dier IMO.

He has to remain in midfield now for me as he can be world class there, although he could possibly become world class in defence too obviously

I think that everyone agrees that Dier has been exceptional this season and a real improvement on who played there last year.

With Dier able to play further forward, Dembele also able to play deep and Mason and Bentaleb coming back from injury, we look to have a really good quality five players to choose from for these two spots.

Let's hope that we get qualification for the knock out rounds of the Europa Cup sealed in the next game and some easy home fixtures in the early rounds of the FA Cup so that we can give everyone game time and get them up to speed.

 

[milo]

I'll reveal which player is which tonight unless there is another criteria that people think should be added to make a distinction clearer.

 

[Pirate55]

I'll reveal which player is which tonight unless there is another criteria that people think should be added to make a distinction clearer.

The other variable I would like to see is how the partner of the DM plays. For example, is the double pivot still in operation with both CMs sharing equal attacking and defensive duties or is Dier's partner freer to play a more attacking role knowing there is a dedicated DM behind him?

I suspect the heat maps of a combined Dier and Alli would show a difference to a Mason and Bentaleb combo.