The Defensive Midfielder

[milo]

I thought we was talking about this season aswell - there seems to be suggestion that Dier isn't playing a deeper defensive role (when compared with his CM partner this season) unless i have misread?

With regards to last season v this, and your earlier post im now of the opinion that heat maps would be inconclusive as there are too many variables at play (opposition and how they were setup, how we were playing that day among others)

At the very least they would have to be against the same opposition and at the same venue (home v away) before we could begin to read anything in to them.



Edit : 1 Dier, 2/3 = Mason/Bentaleb?

There are certainly a lot of variables which is one of the reasons why I suggested having a range of criteria rather than just heatmaps. If I get the time later I will pick another criteria for the same players in the same matches.

I picked the games at random and they are not against the same opponents.

 

[Bullet]

Dier is the deepest midfielder. He's the one that goes into a CB position when Alder and Verts split wide. He's the one I most expect to be challenging when the opposition break. Occasionally he will push further forward, but so does Vertonghen.

 

[scaramanga]

Dier is the deepest midfielder. He's the one that goes into a CB position when Alder and Verts split wide. He's the one I most expect to be challenging when the opposition break. Occasionally he will push further forward, but so does Vertonghen.

Equally one could say that he's the one who picks up the ball from defence, therefore he's a playmaker (he's not that either, just an illustration).

 

[milo]

OK touches this time. Same players and the games are listed in the same order.

Player 1

Player 2

Player 3

 

[Finney Is Back]

Certainly not at a higher rate than any of our other midfielders (except Chadli).

I've made more tackles for Spurs than Chadli has!....

Why is it that you think a defensive midfielder should be making a lot of tackles anyway? The role should be more about filling space, covering team mates, tracking opposition runners, closing off passing angles and slowing down the opposition's attacks.

 

[scaramanga]

I've made more tackles for Spurs than Chadli has!....

Why is it that you think a defensive midfielder should be making a lot of tackles anyway? The role should be more about filling space, covering team mates, tracking opposition runners, closing off passing angles and slowing down the opposition's attacks.

In a pressing team that's what everyone does (except Chadli and Lloris)

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Hmmm this is an interesting debate! But I am going to put the cat amongst the pigeons with this comment. Could it be that Dier is performing the role of Bentaleb/Mason better than they were? i.e. he's just better at following Poch's instruction than either of those two were?

Last season Bentaleb in the main, but sometimes Mason came in deep to collect the ball. Dier's positional sense (perhaps because he is more defensively aware) is better at spotting when to fill in than Mason or Bentaleb.

One thing to keep this somewhat on track to remember is that Dembele has had one game filling in for Dier and did the same duties in a different way.

I also think that the heat maps that @milo put up show that there is no discernable difference between touches or positions played. As I said before, I think upgrading certain players (No fazio, Paulinho, Ade, Capoue) has improved our play. By being more energetic, by being more single minded with the press (when to and when not to), and by just being quicker (Toby v Fazio, Dier v Capoue/Bentaleb, any of our front 4 v Ade and Paulinho) we are a much more defensively solid team.

 

[milo]

Dier has been brilliant this season and the fact that Bentaleb is not going to walk into the team tells us how their performances to date compare.

I also think that the whole team is playing better this season @Gazzasrightboot and that Dier will be benefitting from that. He hasn't had to contended with a chopping and changing central defence, players filling in at right back and he has players in front of him who are well drilled, comfortable receiving the ball and close down well.

 

[LutonSpurs]

We have seen Walker and Davies have improved their defensive work, I wouldn't be surpirsed to see Nabil do the same. This is a Poch focus. To see us close out a game with a central 3 of Dier, Bentaleb and Dembele would be something special with Son, Njie and Kane ready for the counter attack.

 

[Pirate55]

OK. Here we go. Three players (Dier, Mason and Bentaleb), three games, some from last season and some from this. Which is which?

Player 1

Player 2

Player 3

If you don't want to be selective to prove a point, why don't you overlay ALL the three players heat maps for ALL the games they played in that position. Then we can all see the results fairly without your own filter imposed.?

 

[milo]

If you don't want to be selective to prove a point, why don't you overlay ALL the three players heat maps for ALL the games they played in that position. Then we can all see the results fairly without your own filter imposed.?

I think that it is a little unfair to suggest that I am being selective to prove a point. I have given anonymised raw data from two different data sets; heat maps and touches.

By giving the data from the games there is no filter, if I had editted them, I think that an accusation of manipulating the data would be far fairer.

It you want to merge the data into a single map for each player, be my guest. Although, I am not sure how you would go about doing that.

 

[Pirate55]

I think that it is a little unfair to suggest that I am being selective to prove a point. I have given anonymised raw data from two different data sets; heat maps and touches.

By giving the data from the games there is no filter, if I had editted them, I think that an accusation of manipulating the data would be far fairer.

It you want to merge the data into a single map for each player, be my guest.

I am not suggesting you edited them to manipulate data. What I want to be clearer about is that you didn't just select games that were favorable to your view. For example, the way Dier played against an Arsenal will be different from against a Bournemouth. Therefore the only real way to get a fair and unbiased view of their overall play is to look at ALL the games to get a true reflection.

In any event, iirc Dier didn't play DM ( or deep lying CM) last year and Bentaleb has hardly played this season.

 

[milo]

I am not suggesting you edited them to manipulate data. What I want to be clearer about is that you didn't just select games that were favorable to your view. For example, the way Dier played against an Arsenal will be different from against a Bournemouth. Therefore the only real way to get a fair and unbiased view of their overall play is to look at ALL the games to get a true reflection.

In any event, iirc Dier didn't play DM ( or deep lying CM) last year and Bentaleb has hardly played this season.

I'm not sure that I have a view. I haven't really been involved in the discussion on the changes in system/personnel between last season and this. If pushed I think that people are slightly overstating how much Dier sits back and that the labels being usedget in the way of a decent discussion.

I tried to pick the games randomly and certainly did not look at the heat maps and picked ones that suited one argument over the other.

I was thinking about this earlier and was intending to add another couple of games for each player. Game it a bit to try and get an equal spread of easier, moderate and difficult games. Not that the current spread is that off kilter.

Dier's games are from this season, Mason's from this and last and Bentaleb's all from last season.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

That was in response to a suggestion that he was playing deeper than Mason and Bentaleb did last year. It was also an attempt to look at this objectively. Heat maps would show that but I would be happy with any other objective way of making a comparison that you can suggest.

But I have never said bentaleb and Mason didn't play deeper, I said they weren't good enough, hence the need for a proper DM. It's other people who seem to think our tactics have changed dramatically.

 

[GrimsbyYid]

Oh it's a boring argument. People reluctance to admit things is funny. Listening to Mabbutt on spurs show, he called Dier a holder too. Watching England last night, if you don't think Dier is a defensive minded midfielder , sorry to resort to this, but you are utterly beyond clueless and there's no point discussing. Especially in the Dembele thread

Dembele on the other hand, absolutely brilliant all round, can play the DM role second best in our squad I reckon, but I also offers loads in attack. Gutter boy would prefer to play winks and bring back Jamie O Hara though...

 

[scaramanga]

Oh it's a boring argument. People reluctance to admit things is funny. Listening to Mabbutt on spurs show, he called Dier a holder too. Watching England last night, if you don't think Dier is a defensive minded midfielder , sorry to resort to this, but you are utterly beyond clueless and there's no point discussing. Especially in the Dembele thread

Dembele on the other hand, absolutely brilliant all round, can play the DM role second best in our squad I reckon, but I also offers loads in attack. Gutter boy would prefer to play winks and bring back Jamie O Hara though...

 

[parklane1]

Oh it's a boring argument. People reluctance to admit things is funny. Listening to Mabbutt on spurs show, he called Dier a holder too. Watching England last night, if you don't think Dier is a defensive minded midfielder , sorry to resort to this, but you are utterly beyond clueless and there's no point discussing. Especially in the Dembele thread

...

Indeed, it reminds me of.

 

[billyiddo]

Id be interested to see what you think is the water in this argument Parklane because it seems the only person providing any objectivity on the matter is Milo with his heatmaps and his position of touches graphs - that to me is 'the water' as it paints a picture of where each player is involved on the pitch, but some of you seem reluctant to budge from your positions or even begin to contemplate taking a sip...

 

[parklane1]

Id be interested to see what you think is the water in this argument Parklane because it seems the only person providing any objectivity on the matter is Milo with his heatmaps and his position of touches graphs - that to me is 'the water' as it paints a picture of where each player is involved on the pitch, but some of you seem reluctant to budge from your positions or even begin to contemplate taking a sip...

My point is that Dier is playing the defensive midfield role, those who say he is not are the horse. And my post is no way directed at Milo, OK? its pretty straight forward really.

 

[billyiddo]

My point is that Dier is playing the defensive midfield role, those who say he is not are the horse. And my post is no way directed at Milo, OK? its pretty straight forward really.

For the picture to work you need to have shown some reasoning/evidence as to why Dier is playing as a DM - ie you (the man in the pic) showing the others (the horse) something which shows Dier irrefuetably plays as a DM (the water)


As someone on the fence in this argument (i initially thought he plays a different game to our CMs last season but am now undecided) i don't see anyone from either side getting close to swaying the argument their way - and Milo, who hasn't said what he thinks, is doing the best job of providing something to think about