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The Crossroads...

I don’t agree with that, yes revenue can be spent on transfers and player salaries, but it can also be spent on facilities, coaching and counselling.

Yes other clubs can spend more than us, but they can’t work harder or smarter.

When did we stop expecting players to improve on the training pitch? When did we stop expecting players to learn from and pay for their mistakes?

Thats where we have gone wrong in the last two years in my opinion, expectations were allowed to drop, there has been no threat to their place, the next man up hasn’t been given a look in.
Of course they can (or certainly as hard and as smart as we can). Why on earth would any club have the monopoly on this?

Every club in every league is doing everything in its power to improve.

I do agree with you however that expectations have been allowed to drop. I think our new players signed in the summer will start to address that and If we can do even better business this Jan and July adding 4 or 5 more then we could even have a title crack next season.
 
Such a boring theme song, made me sleepy Zzzz...

Spanking new stadium, but not a fortress at all, visiting teams seem very motivated, like they want to prove a point

still need to sell and buy players, work in progress
 
Its not Poch, its the budget, and the fact we need 8 signings before we can perform again.
We don't need 8 signings before we can perform again at all. However what we have effectively had up until now is only 1 new signing across two seasons (due to Lo Celso and Sessegnon's injuries). That is a very, very stale squad.

I think now that we have most of the squad fit again and Lo Celso integrated our performances and results are likely to improve. Time will tell.

Usually a team that is striving to improve would expect to sign at least 2 or 3 players every season. We missed a whole year which has put us back somewhat, so I think we do need to address that by adding 4 or 5 over the next two windows.

If we do add 4 or 5 players in the right positions of comparable quality of the ones we signed in the last window then I think we would be in the top three and actually challenging the top two. Of course that assumes that some of the clubs competing with us don't make even greater improvements than we do.
 
Thats fair. We need at least 3 new signings before Poch should be expected to get more out of the team.

Im surprised we even asked him to work this season so far at all, quite unreasonable considering Lo Celso and Sessegnon havent really been available.

I mean, who could we possibly expect to get more out of the bunch of misfits we have had available? Not a single manager on the planet!

Poch has been doing us a favour when you think about it.
 
Exactly. Poor old Poch. Its a miracle he has us 11th and still in the FA cup really.
I will admit that it is certainly poor that we are currently in 11th place in the league, but I don't think we are in an unrecoverable tailspin. I think we'll start to get the results now that some of the players that (one would assume) will be Poch's favoured ones will be fully available for selection.

Can you at least agree that it was pretty much a miracle that Poch got us 4 CL qualifications in a row on our limited budget?
 
Thats fair. We need at least 3 new signings before Poch should be expected to get more out of the team.

Im surprised we even asked him to work this season so far at all, quite unreasonable considering Lo Celso and Sessegnon havent really been available.

I mean, who could we possibly expect to get more out of the bunch of misfits we have had available? Not a single manager on the planet!

Poch has been doing us a favour when you think about it.
Oh sarcasm.... the lowest form of wit... How appropriate. :D
 
I will admit that it is certainly poor that we are currently in 11th place in the league, but I don't think we are in an unrecoverable tailspin. I think we'll start to get the results now that some of the players that (one would assume) will be Poch's favoured ones will be fully available for selection.

Can you at least agree that it was pretty much a miracle that Poch got us 4 CL qualifications in a row on our limited budget?

Miracle? Im pretty sure Tottenham Hotspur didnt even exist pre-Pochettino. Might as well not have, lets be honest.

Miracle does not do justice to the man getting top 4 finishes with players like Kane, Son, Eriksen, Moura, Lamela, Dier, Wanyama, Dembele, Walker, Rose, Alderweireld.... Especially when all of the established clubs were just so strong.

Miracle doesnt come close. The miracle is that we werent relegated. I dont actually know the word to describe his achievements with us, maybe we should make one up? It was a "Mauricle"!
 
Oh sarcasm.... the lowest form of wit... How appropriate. :D

Not at all, I have simply seen the light.

Poch is only great, nothing is his fault at all, we should be grateful he has deigned to stay with us.

As an aside here are you a fan that attends many games Nayim? (this is just for my own curiosity really).

I do not. Im sure you can form some sort of narrative around that, itll give you something to respond to instead of the content of my posts - as usual ;)
 
Miracle? Im pretty sure Tottenham Hotspur didnt even exist pre-Pochettino. Might as well not have, lets be honest.

Miracle does not do justice to the man getting top 4 finishes with players like Kane, Son, Eriksen, Moura, Lamela, Dier, Wanyama, Dembele, Walker, Rose, Alderweireld.... Especially when all of the established clubs were just so strong.

Miracle doesnt come close. The miracle is that we werent relegated. I dont actually know the word to describe his achievements with us, maybe we should make one up? It was a "Mauricle"!
Sad, but perhaps not unexpected, to see you descend to this level.

Some of those players you list were signed by Pochettino (Son, Moura, Dier, Wanyama, Alderweireld) and many of the others were developed into such good players under Pochettino (Kane and Rose certainly, you could possibly even argue Dembele and Eriksen).

I've asked several times and, so far, you haven't responded with an example.... Are there other managers in the big European leagues who have managed to take their club to consistent CL qualification spots despite having the 6th lowest wage budget and 10th biggest transfer budget?
 
Miracle? Im pretty sure Tottenham Hotspur didnt even exist pre-Pochettino. Might as well not have, lets be honest.

Miracle does not do justice to the man getting top 4 finishes with players like Kane, Son, Eriksen, Moura, Lamela, Dier, Wanyama, Dembele, Walker, Rose, Alderweireld.... Especially when all of the established clubs were just so strong.

Miracle doesnt come close. The miracle is that we werent relegated. I dont actually know the word to describe his achievements with us, maybe we should make one up? It was a "Mauricle"!

against my better judgement jumping in here, but this idea that the players you listed were always destined to be great is another falsehood. I agree with @billyiddo , the lack of loyalty to someone that has shown it to us leaves me aghast as well.

Rose was a decent but inconsistent fullback with potential. Dier was a punt from Sporting. Kane was an unremarkable youth player. Frankly none of the players you had listed had demonstrated the capability to consistency play in a top 3 team across an entire season. They all had potential, but they all had their question marks, and there was no guarantee they would all come together and perform consistently to raise us up a level. The fact that we were shopping for them was a function of our previous financial standing, and the constraints Poch had to work with.

We were consistently a top 6 team. Largely batting at par for where we were. We’ve since consistently finished in the top 4 and made a CL final. I really think people need to think back to what our club was before Poch joined. What we have experienced since wasn’t always destined to happen. This rewriting of history is ridiculous.

He has a tremendous amount of credit in the bank, and I think everyone who matters understands the constraints we as a club have operated under, and what we have managed to achieve in spite of them. No club has done what we have done, hauling ourselves up from the second table to the top table, while building a new stadium and spending net nothing on the squad. This has presented unique circumstances and unique challenges (the fact that there aren’t too many better places for our players to go now being a key one) and it’s meant that moving them out so we can move on has been difficult, and will have taken 2 years longer than we would have liked. But it will happen. The refresh is on. I trust the guy and believe he deserves a chance to get us back on the good path, considering he stayed with us through the hard yards.
 
Sad, but perhaps not unexpected, to see you descend to this level.

Some of those players you list were signed by Pochettino (Son, Moura, Dier, Wanyama, Alderweireld and many of the others were developed into such good players under Pochettino (Kane and Rose certainly, you could possibly even argue Dembele and Eriksen).

I've asked several times and, so far, you haven't responded with an example.... Are there other managers in the big European leagues who have managed to take their club to consistent CL qualification spots despite having the 6th lowest wage budget and 10th biggest transfer budget?

I am trying out the other side of the coin, I must say its quite refreshing. Just make excuses for everything, dont think about it too much, I can see the appeal.

I havent responded, because its not the point. As is very common with you these days, you zero in on a factor beside the point (and rarely even the point I was making) and make the discussion about that. Ignoring anything that actually challenges you.

Why focus on the budget so much? Because that way you dont have to admit that Poch has easily one of the top 4 squads in the league, and so top 4 finishes arent actually miraculous.

Players win matches, not budgets.

Managers win matches, through developing and working with players, not through salaries.

Some teams can afford to buy the finished product. So they do. And that way the end up with excellent players (in theory at least).

Other teams, like us, cant. So we buy very talented young players, develop them, and end up with excellent players.

The journey is different, the destination the same.

If you really are determined to focus on the money aspect so much, perhaps you should be looking at what our players would cost to buy now, rather than what we bought them for? Perhaps then you would see that by working differently, we actually have much more parity with these clubs than you would like to admit.
 
I am trying out the other side of the coin, I must say its quite refreshing. Just make excuses for everything, dont think about it too much, I can see the appeal.

I havent responded, because its not the point. As is very common with you these days, you zero in on a factor beside the point (and rarely even the point I was making) and make the discussion about that. Ignoring anything that actually challenges you.

Why focus on the budget so much? Because that way you dont have to admit that Poch has easily one of the top 4 squads in the league, and so top 4 finishes arent actually miraculous.

Players win matches, not budgets.

Managers win matches, through developing and working with players, not through salaries.

Some teams can afford to buy the finished product. So they do. And that way the end up with excellent players (in theory at least).

Other teams, like us, cant. So we buy very talented young players, develop them, and end up with excellent players.

The journey is different, the destination the same.

If you really are determined to focus on the money aspect so much, perhaps you should be looking at what our players would cost to buy now, rather than what we bought them for? Perhaps then you would see that by working differently, we actually have much more parity with these clubs than you would like to admit.

why do you think these players are so valuable now, as opposed to when we bought them? Do you think they were all always destined to get to the level they got to?
 
I am trying out the other side of the coin, I must say its quite refreshing. Just make excuses for everything, dont think about it too much, I can see the appeal.

Incredible, the irony - i guess it must take so much thought to come up with the manager turning to brick for the answer to everything wrong with the club atm
 
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