The Crossroads...

[Raziel]

We had a Deal with him I believe

I guess we were waiting for these mystery suitors for Eriksen

all speculation, but his post window interview specifically said his club killed the deal, Spurs were ready to go.

you might be right about the other quote .. somebody can confirm ...

 

[Cochise]

And yet you appear to be ignoring @Finney Is Back 's point about Poch being the only manager in the top European Leagues who has managed to consistently compete against clubs with bigger budgets than his own. I've not checked this, but if true we are fudged in terms of Champions League finish whether we sack Poch or not. He remains our best chance to get it.

To play devil's advocate; Has his challenging been as much about us as it has the opposition?

Since he has been at the helm, we have seen Man UTD, City and Chelsea all yoyo around the top 6. Arsenal have fallen into a slump, Leicester made a brief appearance and Liverpool went from the bottom of the group to the top.

The only year that we looked a really in it was when we spent money on and settled Wanyama, Son and Alderweireld into the team. The entire league was a mess and a european competitionless Chelsea took the title. Now we are at a stage where Liverpool and City have got top coaches that they have backed to the hilt. Arsenal should really be on the up this year but oh well, Chelsea should be in a slump but are finally trusting in the top youth they have been hoarding and are profiting, UTD are somewhere in the middle whilst Leicester have had time to go away, rebuild and cause damage.

In short, our opponents are in a way better place than they were whilst we have fallen back. Poch will not catch them with bargain basement buys just like he didn't before. Poch inherited some good players, most of which are still in the first team squad, but there is no way we will catch today's top group without spending good money in the right areas.

 

[monkeybarry]

This is the squad that Poch inherited:
Lloris, Gomes, Friedel
Walker, Rose, Naughton, Fryers
Kaboul, Vertonghen, Chiriches, Dawson
Sandro, Capoue, Dembele, Paulinho
Lennon, Lamela, Townsend, Chadli, Siggurdson, Eriksen
Soldado, Adebayor, Kane

Some of the players above weren't considered to be brilliant before Poch came in (Walker, Rose, Kane, even Dembele). They improved through good coaching.

Here are each years transfers under Poch:
Under Poch we added
Year 1: Davies, Vorm, Dier, Yedlin, Fazio, Stambouli, Ali,
Year 2: Wimmer, Trippier, Alderweireld, N'Jie, Son
Year 3: Wanyama, Janssen, N'Koudou, Sissoko,
Year 4: Sanchez, Aurier, Gazzaniga, Foyth, Llorente, Moura
Year 5: Nobody
Year 6: N'Dombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon, Clarke

I have bolded the players that I think have been reasonable (or better) signings, purposely leaving off Lo Celso and Sessegnon from this years crop as we haven't really seen them yet (I expect both to do well at Spurs though).

I think more signings than not have worked out OK or better. Also we didn't really lose too much money on the signings that didn't work out:

Yedlin (+£2.5M)
Fazio (-£5M (after two loans that probably bought half of this amount in loan fees)
Stambouli (+£1.3M
Wimmer (+£13.7M
N'Jie (-£2.3M)
Janssen (-£11.7M)
N'Koudou (-£4.8M)

So that's a maximum of only about a £5 million loss overall on those on those transfer "failures" (and probably nothing at all considering loan fees would've been bought in for Fazio, N'Jie and N'Koudou.

I'm absolutely fine with Poch being given money to spend.

Interestingly, all the players you highlight are still here and all the others moved on.
(Aurier and Llorente the exceptions).

 

[thfcsteff]

That would have put us as the highest spenders in the country, but also with a bloated squad to accommodate

I’d really like Fernndes and think he would be class but we need to free up places in the squad for players like him. The easiest and most logically way is selling Eriksen but as we know, no one wants it buy him

Curiously I agree with the point, especially given that Poch likes smaller squads. My personal wish was for us to sign him regardless of Eriksen and bin CE if he didn't want to sign or leave until next summer, but yes, hard to argue to illogic of that. Which brings us back around to Pich being lumped with a horrible situation he could've done nothing about.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Curiously I agree with the point, especially given that Poch likes smaller squads. My personal wish was for us to sign him regardless of Eriksen and bin CE if he didn't want to sign or leave until next summer, but yes, hard to argue to illogic of that. Which brings us back around to Pich being lumped with a horrible situation he could've done nothing about.

It’s a situation that only Erisken could have done anything about by signing for a club that wanted him...

Same problem we have encountered many times. You can’t sell a player no one wants. You can’t sell a player if they won’t go.

maybe the wanyama sale was a key piece of the jigsaw and he pulled that one himself

 

[billyiddo]

Mate, not sure if you realize but you make my point

- The issue is not the personnel (even if you argue different)
- The issue is a manager who had a unique combination (two marauding FB's and a unique midfield player in Dembele) that helped him achieve success, and he has refused to adapt to those players not being there anymore.
- You argue Jan, Toby eyeing the door (revisionist, Ja up to this season has publicly indicated he wanted to play at Spurs until he wasn't good enough, Poch has somehow managed to alienate that), ok .. Sanchez (who has the tools), Foyth, Davies (can stand in), Dier, Tanganga .. none of them can find a place? Aurier is the brainfart of early Walker with the rashness of early Rose, yet Poch can't help him.

Yes, we can't play with FB's up and providing the creativity .. so what, is that the only way to play football? or the only way Poch knows how to

Amazing, we can sit here and literally say Dier, Aurier, Sanchez, KWP, Winks, Dele, Eriksen, Toby, Jan, Rose have all gone to brick (despite other than Jan/Toby none are in old age), but the manager is fine? (everyone in the world but me is crazy)

Play 3 at back with a wonky, play Son, Kane and Lucas to use pace against opposition, don't high press but counter, try to use the team you have, and there is no way I will ever buy into the theory that this squad is only good enough to be above 15th on GD only … that is just reaching ..

Id say succesful managers generally have a way of playing that they implement at clubs and their success largely hinges on whether they make it work or not with the players they have available to them - the two coaches in the league we want Poch to compete with (Klopp Guardiola) were going nowhere untill they had the chance to bring in players that suited their style, before that both struggled and people questioned their abilities.
You seem to be saying our manager should have to suffer the reverse, to have players key to his style taken away, not replaced sufficiently and to come up with a new way of playing to suit the mediocre players we have given him over a few seasons whilst competing with teams that not only have a higher financial backing but also get to sign the players they want to make their preferred style of play work.

It's ridiculous and really it's to Poch's eternal credit that he stuck with us while we were hamstrung by the stadium build meaning a net transfer spend and a weakening of the squad - could have easily walked out when his stock was high to a job where he would have been backed fully (and frankly this is why im so aghast at the lack of loyalty some of our fanbase is showing him right now)

He has done the hard yards here over several seasons with constraints on him that his peers don't have, he has proven that with the right players he will have us competing for the biggest prizes so imo has earned the right to rebuild the team in his image - if we're now in a position to back him, and summer just gone would suggest we are, then the fact he/we are struggling in the unique set of circumstances we are currently in does not mean much in the long run given we shouldn't see ourselves experiencing them again.

 

[scaramanga]

We don’t As the players want to go
Their proud to represent their countries

Then they're as stupid as we're wrong.

 

[Raziel]

Id say succesful managers generally have a way of playing that they implement at clubs and their success largely hinges on whether they make it work or not with the players they have available to them - the two coaches in the league we want Poch to compete with (Klopp Guardiola) were going nowhere untill they had the chance to bring in players that suited their style, before that both struggled and people questioned their abilities.
You seem to be saying our manager should have to suffer the reverse, to have players key to his style taken away, not replaced sufficiently and to come up with a new way of playing to suit the mediocre players we have given him over a few seasons whilst competing with teams that not only have a higher financial backing but also get to sign the players they want to make their preferred style of play work.

It's ridiculous and really it's to Poch's eternal credit that he stuck with us while we were hamstrung by the stadium build meaning a net transfer spend and a weakening of the squad - could have easily walked out when his stock was high to a job where he would have been backed fully (and frankly this is why im so aghast at the lack of loyalty some of our fanbase is showing him right now)

He has done the hard yards here over several seasons with constraints on him that his peers don't have, he has proven that with the right players he will have us competing for the biggest prizes so imo has earned the right to rebuild the team in his image - if we're now in a position to back him, and summer just gone would suggest we are, then the fact he/we are struggling in the unique set of circumstances we are currently in does not mean much in the long run given we shouldn't see ourselves experiencing them again.

Come on mate, he's not working as charity .. wtf? Poor Poch has had to make do with 8M/yr while managing one of the top football clubs in the world? Lets be clear, if Poch had left Spurs for United or Madrid, the odds are great he would have been fired already and be at some mid level club trying to rebuild his image by now (and if you are honest, he knows that and it played into any decision he made). Again, why do you and others think we need to have loyalty to Poch? but not Eriksen or Davies as example? My only loyalty is to Spurs.

But to your point re squad, while I appreciate managers need players that match a style, that is not feasible if you are building it around a type of player that can't be replaced reasonably (e.g. Carrick, Modric, Dembele).

The likelihood of finding like for like with Rose/Walker/Dembele combination with any budget is very low, hence anyone with half a brain would have realized we needed to adapt .. and that's what we/Poch have absolutely not done, still trying to force the system on players that can't carry it out .. it's just stupid and the results keep banging the point home.

 

[StephenH]

After listening to the draw for the league cup, which I normally care little about, this morning over breakfast.
I felt so sad that my club are once again missing!
Couple that with our current eleventh place showing, I’m not a happy Spurs follower!

 

[StephenH]

The likelihood of finding like for like with Rose/Walker/Dembele combination with any budget is very low, hence anyone with half a brain would have realized we needed to adapt .. and that's what we/Poch have absolutely not done, still trying to force the system on players that can't carry it out .. it's just stupid and the results keep banging the point home.

Like this as it matches my mood this morning!

 

[billyiddo]

Come on mate, he's not working as charity .. wtf? Poor Poch has had to make do with 8M/yr while managing one of the top football clubs in the world? Lets be clear, if Poch had left Spurs for United or Madrid, the odds are great he would have been fired already and be at some mid level club trying to rebuild his image by now (and if you are honest, he knows that and it played into any decision he made). Again, why do you and others think we need to have loyalty to Poch? but not Eriksen or Davies as example? My only loyalty is to Spurs.

But to your point re squad, while I appreciate managers need players that match a style, that is not feasible if you are building it around a type of player that can't be replaced reasonably (e.g. Carrick, Modric, Dembele).

The likelihood of finding like for like with Rose/Walker/Dembele combination with any budget is very low, hence anyone with half a brain would have realized we needed to adapt .. and that's what we/Poch have absolutely not done, still trying to force the system on players that can't carry it out .. it's just stupid and the results keep banging the point home.

It's more about us than it is him really (but i do feel it's important to show loyalty to those who show it to you) it's about us and passing over a manager that has proven he can get us competing at the top when he puts together the team how he sees it - why throw away that kind of known quantity because we are having a tough time seeing out the old era before starting a long overdue squad rebuild - which ultimately is a situation of circumstance rather than of our own/his own doing and is unique to now - get through this period and we won't likely be in this situation again.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Cherry picking mate, Spurs revenue as a % has increased more than any other club in England over last 5 years except United, we are in fact closing the gap.

The idea that Spurs doesn't spend is simply ignoring the fact that we have spent over 1B in the structure of the club (as vs. United who may pay more wages but the fudging roof leaks). Picking wages when if you pick apart who/what those clubs are spending on (Scum's front 3 are on insane wages and no better than ours, United was paying deadbeats like Sanchez, what has Everton got for their splash?).

It's not cherry picking. The question I was asked by Nayim was about budget and whether we were closing the gap on our rivals with our budget. I showed that our budget in terms of player wages is actually falling further behind the richer clubs than us and several of the less rich clubs than us are actually catching us up.

A clubs revenue only makes a difference to the clubs standing when that revenue is actually spent on the team. I fully agree that our revenue has been increasing at a fantastic rate over the past 3 years or so and would never dispute that. However Pochettino hasn't actually seen any of the benefit of that up until it seemed to start trickling through this summer. Time will tell if Levy is serious enough to increase our wage ratio up from what is currently the league's lowest at only 38% of turnover (as of the last set of published accounts). If he does, then that coupled with our revenue increase will allow us to compete on a more equal footing with at least one of the 5 clubs currently putting more resources into their first team.

I do not dispute the fact that we have spent a lot of money on Capital projects (some might say overspent as I think the stadium went well over budget). However doing this doesn't actually allow Pochettino to compete on an equal footing with the clubs he is supposed to be rivalling. I picked wages as (and I know I sound like a broken record here) in every single league in Europe the clubs paying the biggest wages are at the top of the league. Perhaps you think that is a mere coincidence? I don't subscribe to the view that it is coincidence at all.

Consider for example the fact that Pochettino wanted both Mane and Wjinaldum - Liverpool managed to sign both players as they blew us out of the water with their wage offer to those players (I think we instead ended up with N'Koudou and Sissoko instead).

for the past 5 years Poch has had to operate with one hand tied behind his back compared to his supposed rivals. Fingers crossed, that hand is now being untied.

 

[thfcsteff]

Come on mate, he's not working as charity .. wtf? Poor Poch has had to make do with 8M/yr while managing one of the top football clubs in the world? Lets be clear, if Poch had left Spurs for United or Madrid, the odds are great he would have been fired already and be at some mid level club trying to rebuild his image by now (and if you are honest, he knows that and it played into any decision he made). Again, why do you and others think we need to have loyalty to Poch? but not Eriksen or Davies as example? My only loyalty is to Spurs.

But to your point re squad, while I appreciate managers need players that match a style, that is not feasible if you are building it around a type of player that can't be replaced reasonably (e.g. Carrick, Modric, Dembele).

The likelihood of finding like for like with Rose/Walker/Dembele combination with any budget is very low, hence anyone with half a brain would have realized we needed to adapt .. and that's what we/Poch have absolutely not done, still trying to force the system on players that can't carry it out .. it's just stupid and the results keep banging the point home.

Salary, hypothetical scenarios...and what system? He tried a diamond/4-3-3 and it has been panned here. He resorts to 4-2-3-1 and it is panned. What do YOU want? We most certainly know what you DON’T want.

 

[thfcsteff]

It’s a situation that only Eriksen-sen-sen could have done anything about by signing for a club that wanted him...

Same problem we have encountered many times. You can’t sell a player no one wants. You can’t sell a player if they won’t go.

maybe the wanyama sale was a key piece of the jigsaw and he pulled that one himself

...agreed.
When I made this point ages ago a few times it was ignored.
Wanyama pulled out.

 

[Finney Is Back]

This was the quote "point about Poch being the only manager in the top European Leagues who has managed to consistently compete against clubs with bigger budgets than his own"

Because the legend is now not only is Poch the most overperforming manager in the PL, nobody in Europe is doing better ...

Who are you quoting there Raziel? I hope it wasn't me? My exact quote is here:

"I think some on here do not appreciate how hard it is to take a football club with the 6th biggest wage budget and, what?... 10th biggest transfer budget? into a regular CL qualification position. Pochettino is the only manager to have done this in the big European leagues. "​

The two things are quite different. Typically clubs in the midfield pack in their leagues in terms of spending don't hit the CL qualifying positions and, if they do, they don't hit them for multiple seasons in a row. Note that I could be wrong here, but I seem to keep seeing the same old clubs in the CL (although Atalanta this season are a new face, so might be a club and manager to look out for if they maintain this for a few years?)

 

[Finney Is Back]

...agreed.
When I made this point ages ago a few times it was ignored.
Wanyama pulled out.

He pulled out over money.... He would've been financially worse off with the move. I think our chairman could and should've stepped in here (now we'll end up just paying the player £3 million for the season for him to go for far less or perhaps for nothing at all in the summer)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He pulled out over money.... He would've been financially worse off with the move. I think our chairman could and should've stepped in here (now we'll end up just paying the player £3 million for the season for him to go for far less or perhaps for nothing at all in the summer)

Did he????

I heard he pulled out as he would lose his rights to a UK passport

 

[glasgowspur]

Did he????

I heard he pulled out as he would lose his rights to a UK passport

Can understand that, worth more than any amount of money.

 

[MKSpur]

 

[Baleforce]

It's not cherry picking. The question I was asked by Nayim was about budget and whether we were closing the gap on our rivals with our budget. I showed that our budget in terms of player wages is actually falling further behind the richer clubs than us and several of the less rich clubs than us are actually catching us up.

A clubs revenue only makes a difference to the clubs standing when that revenue is actually spent on the team. I fully agree that our revenue has been increasing at a fantastic rate over the past 3 years or so and would never dispute that. However Pochettino hasn't actually seen any of the benefit of that up until it seemed to start trickling through this summer. Time will tell if Levy is serious enough to increase our wage ratio up from what is currently the league's lowest at only 38% of turnover (as of the last set of published accounts). If he does, then that coupled with our revenue increase will allow us to compete on a more equal footing with at least one of the 5 clubs currently putting more resources into their first team.

I do not dispute the fact that we have spent a lot of money on Capital projects (some might say overspent as I think the stadium went well over budget). However doing this doesn't actually allow Pochettino to compete on an equal footing with the clubs he is supposed to be rivalling. I picked wages as (and I know I sound like a broken record here) in every single league in Europe the clubs paying the biggest wages are at the top of the league. Perhaps you think that is a mere coincidence? I don't subscribe to the view that it is coincidence at all.

Consider for example the fact that Pochettino wanted both Mane and Wjinaldum - Liverpool managed to sign both players as they blew us out of the water with their wage offer to those players (I think we instead ended up with N'Koudou and Sissoko instead).

for the past 5 years Poch has had to operate with one hand tied behind his back compared to his supposed rivals. Fingers crossed, that hand is now being untied.

I don’t agree with that, yes revenue can be spent on transfers and player salaries, but it can also be spent on facilities, coaching and counselling.

Yes other clubs can spend more than us, but they can’t work harder or smarter.

When did we stop expecting players to improve on the training pitch? When did we stop expecting players to learn from and pay for their mistakes?

Thats where we have gone wrong in the last two years in my opinion, expectations were allowed to drop, there has been no threat to their place, the next man up hasn’t been given a look in.