Taking stock: are we heading for another Chelski style car-crash ?

[braineclipse]

I know, this is not directed at you but some people tend to get a bit ****y when it sounds like people are 'stating things as fact'.


I don't think it was that called for. There was still plenty of time in the game to get the goals, and the game could have opened up a bit as West Ham grew in confidence and tried to venture forwards a bit more.


We could have been better also, but the players won't have good games every week. It's an odd loss to a 'lower' team. Every team with top four aspirations has had one this season. We just have to try and ensure it doesn't happen too often.

I know, my reply was aimed at them too. Not at yourself, who like me, end up adding imo to posts and sentences helter skelter just to be safe.

Could we have waited 5 more minutes? Could we have waited 10 more minutes? Honestly I don't think we would have been having this discussion if not for the crucial turnover that allowed them the chance to score 2-0. I think we've been just as attacking in other games where we've turned things around in the past. For me at least that was a time to be brave and to dare. Try to get the goal and commit men forward. I understand your point though.

I agree fully with your last paragraph. Not every good team gets punished like we did every time they have a day like that, but everyone has them. It's about bouncing back. I trust AVB, the coaches and the players to respond.

 

[Spursalot]

I know, my reply was aimed at them too. Not at yourself, who like me, end up adding imo to posts and sentences helter skelter just to be safe.

Could we have waited 5 more minutes? Could we have waited 10 more minutes? Honestly I don't think we would have been having this discussion if not for the crucial turnover that allowed them the chance to score 2-0. I think we've been just as attacking in other games where we've turned things around in the past. For me at least that was a time to be brave and to dare. Try to get the goal and commit men forward. I understand your point though.

I agree fully with your last paragraph. Not every good team gets punished like we did every time they have a day like that, but everyone has them. It's about bouncing back. I trust AVB, the coaches and the players to respond.

It's just Man United under Fergie that i want us to emulate. They didn't suddenly throw nine players forward when in search of a late goal. They stuck to their guns, went about their usual business and crafted that one golden opportunity to get that winning goal.

It's an approach that just seems right to me. If we have that much confidence in our game plan, why throw it away when the **** hits the fan?

 

[braineclipse]

It's just Man United under Fergie that i want us to emulate. They didn't suddenly throw nine players forward when in search of a late goal. They stuck to their guns, went about their usual business and crafted that one golden opportunity to get that winning goal.

It's an approach that just seems right to me. If we have that much confidence in our game plan, why throw it away when the **** hits the fan?

I honestly don't think we did. Look at the 2-0 goal, it's not like we were completely gung-ho, it's just that we give the ball away in a bad situation when going forward. Those happen unfortunately.

Unless my memory fails me I think we committed a lot of players forward against both Cardiff and Norwich at times even at 0-0. Several times Dawson or Vertonghen had the ball into their half as the player the furthest back or second furthest back looking for a pass. One properly misplaced pass at that point and they would have had a good counter attacking chance.

Manchester United would commit a lot of players forward under Ferguson from what I can remember, when the situation called for it. Remember our win at Trafford, they came out trying to maul us in the second half and they did not hold back, pressing high up the pitch and committing men forward. Their players were exceptionally solid mentally and technically and made silly mistakes rarer than most though.

 

[Pirate55]

I disagree completely. Very few matches will go by in a season where one team totally dominates the other.


We should be beating these teams, yes. You do them a disservice.

If you don't want to accept what I say, see what Dembele says here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...Dembele-following-West-Ham-United-defeat.html

Note in particular the comments about being tired and lacking passion in the second half and he himself says we should be better prepared for these type of games.

A game on Thursday on the other side of the world where we unnecessarily took virtually our entire fit squad (apart from Paulie and Verts, I think), is hardly ideal preparation. As I said at the time, no first team stalwarts should be taken. We paid the price against Wet Spam. Lets please not make the same mistake again.

 

[Baleforce]

we should be wary of taking those quotes too literally bearing in mind its not his first language

 

[onlyme]

If you don't want to accept what I say, see what Dembele says here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...Dembele-following-West-Ham-United-defeat.html

Note in particular the comments about being tired and lacking passion in the second half and he himself says we should be better prepared for these type of games.

A game on Thursday on the other side of the world where we unnecessarily took virtually our entire fit squad (apart from Paulie and Verts, I think), is hardly ideal preparation. As I said at the time, no first team stalwarts should be taken. We paid the price against Wet Spam. Lets please not make the same mistake again.

Why do you and a couple of others insist we accept what they say?

I listen to everyone's opinions and if I disagree I maybe reply sometimes. But I do not expect them to change their minds.

 

[Pirate55]

Why do you and a couple of others insist we accept what they say?

I listen to everyone's opinions and if I disagree I maybe reply sometimes. But I do not expect them to change their minds.

Er ... In case you hadn't noticed, it's called a discussion.

 

[braineclipse]

If you don't want to accept what I say, see what Dembele says here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...Dembele-following-West-Ham-United-defeat.html

Note in particular the comments about being tired and lacking passion in the second half and he himself says we should be better prepared for these type of games.

A game on Thursday on the other side of the world where we unnecessarily took virtually our entire fit squad (apart from Paulie and Verts, I think), is hardly ideal preparation. As I said at the time, no first team stalwarts should be taken. We paid the price against Wet Spam. Lets please not make the same mistake again.

These were the quotes from Dembele:

“You see the top teams, and you can see it’s the difference,” said Dembélé. “With the guys who become champions, they win these small games. If we want to be there with the top four we need to win these games.

“It’s easier to play against the top teams for the motivation but, if we want to be a top team, we need to be concentrated for these kind of games. It’s a mental thing.

“In the second half we looked very tired and not too much passion. These kind of games you have to win if you want to have a good season so it’s a shame.”

You're reading your already reached conclusion into his quotes, your conclusion is only one of many possible interpretations of what he said. Assuming that what he said wasn't just something he said to the media to answer a question and this represents his actual true feelings.

He talks as much about motivation, concentration and passion as he does about being tired. And actually he says "looking tired", something that could quite easily be caused by the lack of motivation and concentration as from the trip to Russia.

Yes a Thursday game isn't ideal, but that doesn't mean that it's the main reason for the loss or performance against West Ham. We've seen many lackluster performances over the years and many that haven't been directly after a Thursday EL game.

 

[nelto]

"Small games"

Cue meltdown on KUMB!

Edit: Just saw it's old news...

 

[Pirate55]

These were the quotes from Dembele:



You're reading your already reached conclusion into his quotes, your conclusion is only one of many possible interpretations of what he said. Assuming that what he said wasn't just something he said to the media to answer a question and this represents his actual true feelings.

He talks as much about motivation, concentration and passion as he does about being tired. And actually he says "looking tired", something that could quite easily be caused by the lack of motivation and concentration as from the trip to Russia.

Yes a Thursday game isn't ideal, but that doesn't mean that it's the main reason for the loss or performance against West Ham. We've seen many lackluster performances over the years and many that haven't been directly after a Thursday EL game.

It may not be the only reason, but it is certainly a major contributing factor IMO. Or do you put the lack of motivation, concentration, passion and tiredness down to something else? No one has yet come up with a more credible explanation.

Iirc, last season we lost at home to Fulham just after the Inter away game, and our three results following Maribor away were losses to Norwich in the cup, squeaking home against Southampton ( when they were the better side) and then losing at home to Wigan. Clear causal evidence IMO.

This season we have a much bigger and better equipped squad. In my view it was nothing short of a disaster taking and playing so many first team regulars in a game our second string could easily have won. The opposition were poor, the pitch was ****e, the weather was appalling and it just wasn't worth the risk. Walker got injured and the rest got knackered.

If we don't use these types of games to give our squad members a game, then when will they get match sharpness?

 

[onlyme]

All our Euro games and following results last term.
H LAZIO 0-0
H QPR 2-1
A PAN 1-1
H ASTON VILLA 2-0
A MARIBOR 1-1
A SOTON 2-1
H MARIBOR 3-1
A Emirates Marketing Project 1-2
A LAZIO 0-0
H WEST HAM 3-1
H PAN 3-1
A EVERTON 1-2
A LYON 1-1
A WEST HAM 3-2
H INTER 3-0
A LIVERPOOL 2-3
A INTER 1-4
H FULHAM 0-1
H BASLE 2-2
H EVERTON 2-2
A BASLE 2-2
H Emirates Marketing Project 3-1


Only the Inter followed by Fulham result could be attributed to fatigue IMO.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Interesting posts...what do others think of my slight comparison between AVB and Rafa Benitez, in that they like to concentrate on controlling games after taking certain leads, like say 2-0, which to my mind makes them probably much more effective in Europe than in the PL?

I think the logic behind the Holtby transfer needs to be discussed more (not buying him in the first place, more the change of decision to bring the transfer forward which seemed to co-incide with fears of Defoe's fitness).

Not quite sure that he can/could ever be considered a Sandro replacement, surely that was Parker?

Tbf, there are times that it can be done to perfection; I remember Juande Ramos taking off two striker against Arsenal in the 5-1 League cup game in January 2008.

Despite conceding the Adebayor long-range screamer we didn't 'do-a-Spurs' and capitulate; in fact we almost toyed with Arsenal by dictating the tempo and mainly keeping possession in the last 25 mins or so. I don't think i'd ever seen us close out a game against Arsenal like that in my lifetime. Granted we wee 40/4-1 up...but when has that ever stopped Spurs losing a game before???

Brings up another question: what are the main differences (and similarities) between Juande Ramos and AVB?:-k

Anybody have a view on any of these points?

Ta!

 

[braineclipse]

It may not be the only reason, but it is certainly a major contributing factor IMO. Or do you put the lack of motivation, concentration, passion and tiredness down to something else? No one has yet come up with a more credible explanation.

Iirc, last season we lost at home to Fulham just after the Inter away game, and our three results following Maribor away were losses to Norwich in the cup, squeaking home against Southampton ( when they were the better side) and then losing at home to Wigan. Clear causal evidence IMO.

This season we have a much bigger and better equipped squad. In my view it was nothing short of a disaster taking and playing so many first team regulars in a game our second string could easily have won. The opposition were poor, the pitch was ****e, the weather was appalling and it just wasn't worth the risk. Walker got injured and the rest got knackered.

If we don't use these types of games to give our squad members a game, then when will they get match sharpness?

And how do you explain lackluster performances that haven't been following a EL game? Insert whatever explanation you would use for that and you have a credible explanation.

I'm not denying that there's a European hangover effect, but that doesn't mean that this is the most important contributing factor in a specific game.

Most our squad members did get a game iirc. Which players did you think should have been given a game that weren't?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

we should be wary of taking those quotes too literally bearing in mind its not his first language

I always find this argument amusing. I converse with Europeans on a daily basis, and a lot of them have better English language skills than people born here! Dembele's English is very good. I am sure he understands what tired and passion mean.

 

[Baleforce]

I always find this argument amusing. I converse with Europeans on a daily basis, and a lot of them have better English language skills than people born here! Dembele's English is very good. I am sure he understands what tired and passion mean.

I'm sure he does, I was referring to his comments on preparation, I expect he meant that the travelling and time between Anzhi and West Ham wasn't ideal rather than that AVB just hadn't done his homework on west ham.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Interesting posts...what do others think of my slight comparison between AVB and Rafa Benitez, in that they like to concentrate on controlling games after taking certain leads, like say 2-0, which to my mind makes them probably much more effective in Europe than in the PL?

I think a lot of managers who regard themselves as tactical do this. The worst I've seen for doing this was definitely Mancini at City. The Italians have been doing this for years obviously, and Arsenal had great success doing this under George Graham. Mourinho's successful Chelsea teams also used to shut up shop, and I don't doubt this is where AVB gets the notion from.

I think the logic behind the Holtby transfer needs to be discussed more (not buying him in the first place, more the change of decision to bring the transfer forward which seemed to co-incide with fears of Defoe's fitness).

Not quite sure that he can/could ever be considered a Sandro replacement, surely that was Parker?

I think his transfer was brought forward simply to add squad depth, and also to allow AVB to try and implement the system he wants to play. Remember AVB almost certainly wants to implement a 4-3-3/4-5-1 strategy. Last season we often employed a 4-4-1-1 strategy and Holtby's purchase was almost certainly designed to allow us to go to a 5 man midfield. Holtby is also very versatile, and AVB clearly loves versatile players.

Tbf, there are times that it can be done to perfection; I remember Juande Ramos taking off two striker against Arsenal in the 5-1 League cup game in January 2008.

Despite conceding the Adebayor long-range screamer we didn't 'do-a-Spurs' and capitulate; in fact we almost toyed with Arsenal by dictating the tempo and mainly keeping possession in the last 25 mins or so. I don't think i'd ever seen us close out a game against Arsenal like that in my lifetime. Granted we wee 40/4-1 up...but when has that ever stopped Spurs losing a game before???

Brings up another question: what are the main differences (and similarities) between Juande Ramos and AVB?

That Arsenal game was a great experience for us, but it was nowhere near their strongest team (but nor was it as weak as their fans liked to make out).

As for Ramos vs AVB? The main similarity is that both of them will play players out of position to fit them into their system. Both also like their full backs to provide most of the width. The difference is, at least at Spurs, Ramos's teams were far more gung ho on the counter attack, and the plan was clearly to get the ball forward as fast as possible without resorting to hoofing it. AVB's teams are more solid and cautious.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I'm sure he does, I was referring to his comments on preparation, I expect he meant that the travelling and time between Anzhi and West Ham wasn't ideal rather than that AVB just hadn't done his homework on west ham.

I think he knew exactly what he was saying, and that you are wrong about what he meant. He was being more generic, and I don't think he was pointing the blame at AVB but speaking in generalisations.

 

[Pirate55]

And how do you explain lackluster performances that haven't been following a EL game? Insert whatever explanation you would use for that and you have a credible explanation.

I'm not denying that there's a European hangover effect, but that doesn't mean that this is the most important contributing factor in a specific game.

Most our squad members did get a game iirc. Which players did you think should have been given a game that weren't?

If you are going to quote Dembele in full, then you will know he also said "there are a lot of teams who do it " ( ie park the bus, play on the break and try and nick a goal, mainly from a set piece. ). "You have to get used to these kind of days, so it's a shame we weren't prepared."

What do you think he means by that? What weren't we best prepared for? Did we not perhaps know that Wet Spam would come to defend? Was it perhaps by flying half way round the world a couple of days beforehand we were knackered mentally and physically? Or was it perhaps we didn't have enough time to practice free kicks and corners?

 

[braineclipse]

If you are going to quote Dembele in full, then you will know he also said "there are a lot of teams who do it " ( ie park the bus, play on the break and try and nick a goal, mainly from a set piece. ). "You have to get used to these kind of days, so it's a shame we weren't prepared."

What do you think he means by that? What weren't we best prepared for? Did we not perhaps know that Wet Spam would come to defend? Was it perhaps by flying half way round the world a couple of days beforehand we were knackered mentally and physically? Or was it perhaps we didn't have enough time to practice free kicks and corners?

Or was it perhaps that the players weren't mentally prepared?

Dembele described this as a small game. For the West Ham players it would have been the opposite. Perhaps the attitude was a bit off? Doesn't take much at that level before a drop in performance becomes noticeable.

Again, not saying that the Anzhi game didn't have an effect, just saying that there are other factors that could have been just as important or perhaps even more important.

Paulinho was one of those that didn't go? Should we expect him to be considerably better and sharper than those that did travel if the Anzhi trip was the main influencing factor? Did we notice such a difference?

 

[Pirate55]

Or was it perhaps that the players weren't mentally prepared?

Dembele described this as a small game. For the West Ham players it would have been the opposite. Perhaps the attitude was a bit off? Doesn't take much at that level before a drop in performance becomes noticeable.

Again, not saying that the Anzhi game didn't have an effect, just saying that there are other factors that could have been just as important or perhaps even more important.

Paulinho was one of those that didn't go? Should we expect him to be considerably better and sharper than those that did travel if the Anzhi trip was the main influencing factor? Did we notice such a difference?

Dembele, Dawson and Sig to me were the most knackered and the principal reasons we never got going.

However, both you and onlyme now seem to concede that the Anji game MIGHT have been one of the reasons for our dismal display against Wet Spam. The difference between us is a matter of degree. I believe it was a MAJOR reason for our limp display, you both appear to believe that it wasn't a major factor.

What is clear is that we MUST be better prepared for these "small games" in future as it is the results in these games which will largely determine whether we make the top four at the end of the season. Any lack of appropriate preparation is not acceptable.