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***Spurs vs Leeds United***, PL, 4th October 2025 at Elland Road

Baleforce said:
Absolutely, and he is of
that calibre.

Today he saved over 1 xG in attempts, he does that every game we won’t lose many.

Although, the defence shouldn’t be conceding a tenth of that.
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I don’t deny he makes good saves, the one at the end today was vital. I just think all keepers make saves, some at a higher and more consistent level than others, and Vicario has too many frailties that his shot stopping isn’t enough for me and I feel we could and should upgrade on him. He’s not going to make Gomes type fudge ups but he’s already made some mistakes that have cost us points. The fact that he’s now part of the leadership group (which is a silly concept as it is) means he’s unlikely to be dropped and we will be stuck with him for at least another 1-2 seasons unless he starts chucking goals in regularly.
 
Still early days for this team. We’re still settling in. Frank has done what all good mangers do: focused on the team being hard to beat first and foremost. There is team cohesion, focus and determination not to concede.

Odobert and Tel are just 20, not yet in a groove but they working hard and Tel scored! If we can get a few attackers back at the right times in the season it would help us kick on. Fresh players coming into fitness and form late in the season could be massive.

Credit to Frank he’s doing a great job so far. And there is plenty more to come.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I don’t deny he makes good saves, the one at the end today was vital. I just think all keepers make saves, some at a higher and more consistent level than others, and Vicario has too many frailties that his shot stopping isn’t enough for me and I feel we could and should upgrade on him. He’s not going to make Gomes type fudge ups but he’s already made some mistakes that have cost us points. The fact that he’s now part of the leadership group (which is a silly concept as it is) means he’s unlikely to be dropped and we will be stuck with him for at least another 1-2 seasons unless he starts chucking goals in regularly.
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This is where we disagree, I think the current fetish for keepers being good with their feet means keepers generally are not as good as saving shots these days.

Keepers like Donnarumma and Vic are few and far between.

Yes Vic made a huge mistake against Brighton, but that’s a rarity.

I see soft goals go in left right and centre, how many times do you see keepers done at the near post these days.

I’d have fancied Vic to save both of the Chelsea goals today for example.
 
Baleforce said:
This is where we disagree, I think the current fetish for keepers being good with their feet means keepers generally are not as good as saving shots these days.

Keepers like Donnarumma and Vic are few and far between.

Yes Vic made a huge mistake against Brighton, but that’s a rarity.

I see soft goals go in left right and centre, how many times do you see keepers done at the near post these days.

I’d have fancied Vic to save both of the Chelsea goals today for example.
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I believe all defending by defenders has declined as there is too much reliance on midfielders protecting them.
 
Baleforce said:
This is where we disagree, I think the current fetish for keepers being good with their feet means keepers generally are not as good as saving shots these days.

Keepers like Donnarumma and Vic are few and far between.

Yes Vic made a huge mistake against Brighton, but that’s a rarity.

I see soft goals go in left right and centre, how many times do you see keepers done at the near post these days.

I’d have fancied Vic to save both of the Chelsea goals today for example.
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He was lucky to get away with a couple of pretty big mistakes today - caught in no man’s land early on for a cross and then let another cross whistle between him and the near post second half.

He’s a decent shot-stopper, but he’s poor on crosses and with his feet. He also does that ‘Pickford on speed’ thing behind the defence when we’re under pressure, which surely can’t help instil a sense of calm in the back four.

Not a disaster, but I reckon we should be thinking about upgrading within the next 12 months.
 
Mikey10 said:
He was lucky to get away with a couple of pretty big mistakes today - caught in no man’s land early on for a cross and then let another cross whistle between him and the near post second half.

He’s a decent shot-stopper, but he’s poor on crosses and with his feet. He also does that ‘Pickford on speed’ thing behind the defence when we’re under pressure, which surely can’t help instil a sense of calm in the back four.

Not a disaster, but I reckon we should be thinking about upgrading within the next 12 months.
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Who would you go for?
 
Baleforce said:
This is where we disagree, I think the current fetish for keepers being good with their feet means keepers generally are not as good as saving shots these days.

Keepers like Donnarumma and Vic are few and far between.

Yes Vic made a huge mistake against Brighton, but that’s a rarity.

I see soft goals go in left right and centre, how many times do you see keepers done at the near post these days.

I’d have fancied Vic to save both of the Chelsea goals today for example.
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It’s not just his kicking that’s an issue, he’s dreadful from set pieces and expects the defence to deal with it. Like I say I don’t know exactly what leadership qualities he has but I appreciate we don’t see what happens behind the scenes. I don’t like the way he digs out younger players when they make a mistake. At worst, he’s upgradable.
 
Jurgen the German said:
It’s not just his kicking that’s an issue, he’s dreadful from set pieces and expects the defence to deal with it. Like I say I don’t know exactly what leadership qualities he has but I appreciate we don’t see what happens behind the scenes. I don’t like the way he digs out younger players when they make a mistake. At worst, he’s upgradable.
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Cb’s should deal with crosses.

I expect the same.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Still early days for this team. We’re still settling in. Frank has done what all good mangers do: focused on the team being hard to beat first and foremost. There is team cohesion, focus and determination not to concede.

Odobert and Tel are just 20, not yet in a groove but they working hard and Tel scored! If we can get a few attackers back at the right times in the season it would help us kick on. Fresh players coming into fitness and form late in the season could be massive.

Credit to Frank he’s doing a great job so far. And there is plenty more to come.
Click to expand...
I'm all for being positive about Frank but 'All good managers focus on being hard to beat first and foremost'? Not from what I've seen. All good manager focus on their style of play from the get go and stick through an initial period of pain, and this is Franks style that we have seen for years like it or not.

Pep set his team out to play exactly as he wanted from the start, as did Klopp, as did Ireola, as has Amorim and manay others. Do you envisage Ireola coming here and starting out with a playing style like this? No chance, he would implement his preferred style from the get go.

This is Frank's way of playing and that's fine, it can be effective but we have no idea if he is going to end up playing a more expansive brand of football and comes across as wishful thinking that this current style is just temporary judging by what he's done in the past....
 
harr1984 said:
I'm all for being positive about Frank but 'All good managers focus on being hard to beat first and foremost'? Not from what I've seen. All good manager focus on their style of play from the get go and stick through an initial period of pain, and this is Franks style that we have seen for years like it or not.

Pep set his team out to play exactly as he wanted from the start, as did Klopp, as did Ireola, as has Amorim and manay others. Do you envisage Ireola coming here and starting out with a playing style like this? No chance, he would implement his preferred style from the get go.

This is Frank's way of playing and that's fine, it can be effective but we have no idea if he is going to end up playing a more expansive brand of football and comes across as wishful thinking that this current style is just temporary judging by what he's done in the past....
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pep is an outlier, he's consistently had more money than the catholic church, I'd argue that for the money he has spent at City they have massively underachieved

Klopp did the same thing, they used to celebrate draws at West Brom early on don't forget

As for Iraola, PL finishes of what 9th and 12th, good for Bournemouth yes, but the style has seen a tail of in results as the season goes on

Amorim, well, how is that working out?
 
Baleforce said:
pep is an outlier, he's consistently had more money than the catholic church, I'd argue that for the money he has spent at City they have massively underachieved

Klopp did the same thing, they used to celebrate draws at West Brom early on don't forget

As for Iraola, PL finishes of what 9th and 12th, good for Bournemouth yes, but the style has seen a tail of in results as the season goes on

Amorim, well, how is that working out?
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I'm not debating the effectiveness of different styles, I'm debating the claim managers just come in and setup this way to begin with, or this mythical claim that Frank is just playing this way to begin with - perhaps I've missed him saying so himself somewhere.

Managers tend to come in from the beginning of their tenure and get the players to play their way, and Frank is no different - this is exactly how he got Brentford playing. Usually the only time a manager comes in with a 'Be solid first' style of play is when coming in halfway through a season and the team is in a relegation battle.

That's not to say Frank can't/wont change his style over time and of course as has already been mentioned having some of our attacking players back will help out the attacking unit regardless of style. At the end of the day he's done well to negate the injuries and we are effective so it's all good so far....
 
Mikey10 said:
I don’t watch enough European and world football to know. It’s not my job; but I’m sure we’ve got multiple people on £100,000+ whose job it is. Takes the worry off my shoulders. 😃

I do know, though, that he doesn’t command his box, radiate calm, or distribute at the levels required of a really top keeper.
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I don’t think you get one that does everything.

I think Donnarumma is the gold standard right now, head and shoulders above anyone else.

Vic is closer to him than most imo.
 
Hopefully Kudus will take his elephant seat in front of the away section next time he scores on our travels, as that bottle / vape was inches away from taking out our star attacker.

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harr1984 said:
I'm not debating the effectiveness of different styles, I'm debating the claim managers just come in and setup this way to begin with, or this mythical claim that Frank is just playing this way to begin with - perhaps I've missed him saying so himself somewhere.

Managers tend to come in from the beginning of their tenure and get the players to play their way, and Frank is no different - this is exactly how he got Brentford playing. Usually the only time a manager comes in with a 'Be solid first' style of play is when coming in halfway through a season and the team is in a relegation battle.

That's not to say Frank can't/wont change his style over time and of course as has already been mentioned having some of our attacking players back will help out the attacking unit regardless of style. At the end of the day he's done well to negate the injuries and we are effective so it's all good so far....
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Essentially what you’re suggesting is there isn’t more to come from Franks attacking setup. I disagree.

Rome isn’t built in a day. So what does a manager start with? Listen to some of Franks press conferences and a team focus on not conceding has been fundamental.

Why do the best manager have this foundation? If you’re conceding 1 or less goals a game, winning games becomes a lot easier! So of course you start with this.

Yes you can question what else follows. And for some it doesn’t always. Conte aspired to more than just a defensive setup but couldn’t develop the side quick enough for fans or levy and he could only get results that way. Change to more progressive styles and we’d drop points.

Frank in the Chapionship with Brentford played expansive attacking football, so to suggest he’s a one trick pony just doesn’t ring true.

What do you once you have a good defensive foundation? Explore and develop patterns and relationships on the pitch, how to move the ball around more effectively and get the players in sync.
 
SteveAWOL said:
Hopefully Kudus will take his elephant seat in front of the away section next time he scores on our travels, as that bottle / vape was inches away from taking out our star attacker.

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Leeds fans have always been utter scum
 
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