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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

Bullet said:
Please can people watch this video, and tell me if this guy is lying.
I don't know much about Israel/Palestine, I don't love or hate either side, I have no skin in the game. But this guy explains clearly how the Romans intervened in the area, then also talks extensively about 1850 and 1897 and the 1920s and lays out lots of very interesting facts before the Brits got involved.

From your statements, I'm pretty sure some of you in this thread haven't watched this yet.


Wider, I presume as with most wars, there is a small percentage of powerful Palestinians who are horrible racist murderers intent on war, and the same for the Israelis, and the vast majority of normal people are not like that and just want peace.
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I was going to write a longish reply to this but @Lost Mango has done it far better than I would have.

he is quite obviously bias and again @Lost Mango has highlighted some of his inaccuracies.

my biggest problem with the video is the truths he is deliberately leaving out.

for example he says that Jewish people were taxed more under Muslim rule - I’m assuming he means Ottoman rule. This is True, but what he leaves out is that all non Muslims were (supposedly to compensate for the ‘obligatory’ Muslim charity contribution that all Muslims are expected to make yearly). Related to this another TRUTH is that the ottomans specifically welcomed Jewish people to immigrate to the empire when they were being persecuted and slaughtered most notably during the Spanish Inquisition, but through different times in history as well.

This I’m sure you would agree is an important Truth that he omits in order to set a discourse in only one direction.
 
Have either of you commented on that video directly to see how he responds? He says right at the beginning that if you can refute anything he says that you should challenge him.... have you?
 
Kandi1977 said:
Nazism, Marxism and communism aren't political decisions. They're ideologies. I'm fully aware of what and why Israel was founded. But in that process it meant that the people who lived in that area were driven away, and Israel have been slaughtering Palestine for decades and forcing them away to establish their own settlements. They've been just as bad as Hamas, often worse, answering kids who throw rocks by killing them in cold blod. I'm in now way legitimasing what Hamaz are doing or have done before, but Israel are no better!
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Kind of sounds like you are though.
 
dawaxman said:
Have either of you commented on that video directly to see how he responds? He says right at the beginning that if you can refute anything he says that you should challenge him.... have you?
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No because I was responding to someone on here's request for other people's opinions on this video and whether he was being straight-forward.

I'm sure he would engage positively enough (he comes across as decent and open to discussion) but it isn't a conversation I need to have. My comments are easily verified and I don't feel a need to go to a wider audience but was just adding to discussion here.
 
:)
Lost Mango said:
No because I was responding to someone on here's request for other people's opinions on this video and whether he was being straight-forward.

I'm sure he would engage positively enough (he comes across as decent and open to discussion) but it isn't a conversation I need to have. My comments are easily verified and I don't feel a need to go to a wider audience but was just adding to discussion here.
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You make out that history is absolute. That every question has a right and wrong answer. You can have two different historical accounts with neither being false. Many of the things you flag up as ‘wrong’ are just a different interpretation. Most of your comments are: ‘yes that is true but…’ It all depends which kind of full picture you want to give. And that is where bias comes in. Historical arguments around this subject are just the same as contemporary ones: folks trying to prove their side. And largely futile. At least there is some depth and interest in the history. Most don’t have an appreciation of the complex history and most of the broad points made by this chap are fair and under appreciated.

You seemed to be making the point that archaeological findings of a Jewish ancient history in the area are not significant because the forefathers of Palestinians may not have had coins etc. at the time. I don’t think there is any doubt non Jewish peoples lived in the area. The point I think this guy was making was the significance of Isreal and Jerusalem to the Jewish people. I guess you are saying it might have been just as important to others but they were not as literate or didn’t leave their mark?

I could question most your comments for veracity. They are not absolute but interpretations that follow a bias. Which is what all history is! :):)
 
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SpurMeUp said:
You make out that history is absolute. That every question has a right and wrong answer. You can have two different historical accounts with neither being false. Many of the things you flag up as ‘wrong’ are just a different interpretation. Most of your comments are just: ‘yes that is true but…’ It all depends which kind of fully picture you want to give. And that is where bias comes in. Historical arguments around this subject are just the same as contemporary ones: folks trying to prove their side. And largely futile. At least there is some depth and interest in the history. Most don’t have an appreciation of the complex history and most of the board points made by this chap are fair points.
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Thats why I never got along with the parroting of "skin in the game" on here. Because even with a view its only from one side and both sides will have their story to tell and their legitimate hardships from their side. Its all well and good saying only those that have skin in the game can say anything, but then who can or even wants to legitimately balance the story?

On your highlighted point, from my reading of this board, its those that want to explore and discuss the full picture are seemingly those that are being shut down or accused of ridiculous notions, all for presenting the idea that their might be a wider picture to the history behind this.

I get emotions are high and fraught but people alluding to or calling people hamas sympathisers is not called for from what I have read
 
Grays_1890 said:
Thats why I never got along with the parroting of "skin in the game" on here. Because even with a view its only from one side and both sides will have their story to tell and their legitimate hardships from their side. Its all well and good saying only those that have skin in the game can say anything, but then who can or even wants to legitimately balance the story?

On your highlighted point, from my reading of this board, its those that want to explore and discuss the full picture are seemingly those that are being shut down or accused of ridiculous notions, all for presenting the idea that their might be a wider picture to the history behind this.
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Not sure anyone is being shut down. Lots of likes for a range of posts from what I can see.

The interesting thing is where the balance between the two sides falls in the end - re the legitimacy of Isreal.

The other salient point, and why I don’t have time for anti-zionists, is that you have to go from here. There is a successful democratic open and accepting country that has been built in a very short time. You can’t erase that and go back. Only go forward. So while history is important it’s not as important as dealing with the future.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Not sure anyone is being shut down. Lots of likes for a range of posts from what I can see.
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"Skin in the game"
"Why do people feel they have to comment on things they know nothing about"
Comments about being terrorist sympathisers.

Will all due respect mate, I read those as attempts to either close the argument down OR at the vest least shame people for their views. Either way they seem unhealthy comments or tactics to employ in an open topic.
 
Grays_1890 said:
"Skin in the game"
"Why do people feel they have to comment on things they know nothing about"
Comments about being terrorist sympathisers.

Will all due respect mate, I read those as attempts to either close the argument down OR at the vest least shame people for their views. Either way they seem unhealthy comments or tactics to employ in an open topic.
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Not my words but I dont think that is shutting people down. It’s a frustration of people not seeing their side of things and not investing in understanding their side of things.

Isreal garners all sorts of interest. Everyone seems to have an opinion on it. Yet similar or worse situations in the world - plights of the Yemenis or the Armenians for example - people couldn’t care less about. So to some Israelis it feels like people are queuing up to criticise them. I do understand that point.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Not my words but I dont think that is shutting people down. It’s a frustration of people not seeing their side of things and not investing in understanding their side of things.

Isreal garners all sorts of interest. Everyone seems to have an opinion on it. Yet similar or worse situations in the world - plights of the Yemenis or the Armenians for example - people couldn’t care less about. So to some Israelis it feels like people are queuing up to criticise them. I do understand that point.
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I absolutely do not agree. I have read scores of topics on this forum ranging from China, Russia. The Middle East (excluding Israel) probably dominates the pages of this forum more than Israel politics. The Yemen has been discussed at length on here so its a lie to say people don't care

Israel has hardly been discussed on here from what I have seen in recent years but guess what? Its now a hot topic so is being discusses as, IMO any other act of terrorism and reply would be on here, I think its highly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Yes there are of course examples of things that are not discussed but highlighting them does not mean Israel is a focus on here beyond others because its frankly not true TBH.

Given the fact that the Israel/Palestine conflict is the likely the longest living day conflict (in and out of peace) Its actually probably been discussed proportionately less than other regions/conflicts
 
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I think my point is, among compassionate often left leaning people, there is a subtle anti-Israeli bias. And often it is not subtle at all. It might partly be backing the underdog because Isreal is more advanced. Partly from Gaza being ‘kettled’ by Isreal etc.

Yet if you look a little deeper and understand that Isreal didn’t want Gaza, only took it when it was attacked by all three of its neighbours. And that its islamist rulers are trying and succeeding in killing jews, the reality really is much more nuanced. The Israelis are trying to create a peaceful nation. They live just fine with Egypt and would absolutely love to have the same relations with Gaza. But the narrative and image is quite different. Isreal finds it self in this situation, it didn’t seek it. If Gaza is an independent nation - which is what everyone wants - why is it called genocide for Isreal not to supply electricity to them? Isreal have all sorts of abuses and violence against Palestinians. Things that should not have happened. But there is a subtle bias amongst many to not understand the situation Isreal is in, and instead to blame them for it.
 
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It has been exhausting being the main/only voice standing up for Israel over the last two weeks on this site, so thank you @SpurMeUp for stepping in

The thing I'm trying to flag is that it is most definitely NOT a black and white situation, but it feels like some people on this site and loads of people globally are seeing it very much with an anti-Israel lens and almost purposely overlooking any wrongdoings of all other parties

I accept that the Israeli government has made some serious errors since its inception 75 years ago, but when you dig into the whys you'll maybe gain an appreciation for the plight of Israel and the Jews

By constantly responding with "yea but..." it delegitimises the existence even of Israel and the Jewish people

Anyway, it's becoming more and more obvious to the anti-Israel phalanx that they've sided with a terrorist cell

Being pro-Palestine should not make you anti- Israel, but sadly for some they've picked a team where they've been fooled into believing the lies of hamas

I'm all for a two state solution but don't have a go at Israel for doing the dirty work of eliminating a terrorist group to allow that to happen
 
scaramanga said:
That's clearly trolling.

There's no way someone can simultaneously hold that opinion and operate a keyboard. Neither, I believe, could anyone convince their carer to type it for them.
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I'm not talking about just now. I'm talking about over many years.
Israel have used soldiers to brutally detain 5 year olds! On many occasions! That's just insane! What threat does a 5 year old pose? Over the years they've broken just about every UN resolution that exists unpunished. They're not the innocent victim they want to portray themselves as. That's all I'm saying. I'm not taking anyone's side in the conflict, as it's too complicated, and I don't know every detail of it.
 
Kandi1977 said:
I'm not talking about just now. I'm talking about over many years.
Israel have used soldiers to brutally detain 5 year olds! On many occasions! That's just insane! What threat does a 5 year old pose? Over the years they've broken just about every UN resolution that exists unpunished. They're not the innocent victim they want to portray themselves as. That's all I'm saying. I'm not taking anyone's side in the conflict, as it's too complicated, and I don't know every detail of it.
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With the subjective use of "brutally" you're showing that you have taken a side.
 
scaramanga said:
With the subjective use of "brutally" you're showing that you have taken a side.
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Saying that using military personnel to detain a 5 year is brutal, isn't subjective. If you have any sort of human sense or feeling, that is considered pretty much as a fact, not an subjective opinion.
But I'm aware that you posess none of that.
 
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