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Set Pieces

milo said:
I haven't checked it but I have no reason to doubt that figure. My argument has never been against the number of goals scored from set pieces .
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If you believe that 25-33% stat, then you demonstrate a slavish reliance on stats. Better to try and watch our games and recall all the wonderfully creative goals we create and score from corners.

BTW, if the legendary SAF felt it was necessary to practice corners to give his teams the edge, who are you or I to disagree.
 
I'll try to remember our set-piece/corner goals this season. I went through all the competitive matches we've played this season, and these are the finds:

Own goal vs Chelski was from a set piece.
Dele's goal vs Burnley was from a corner.
Kane's first against Everton was from a corner (although Mirallas or who it was cleared the actual corner, the ball came to Kane who hit it in the far corner)
Eriksen's goal vs Wet Spam came after a set piece had hit the post.
Dele's goal vs Liverpool came after Eriksen hit a freekick in that was headed straight into the feet of Dele from Lovren.
Kane's goal vs Liverpool came after Mignolet failed to clear a set piece swung into the box.
Son's headed goal vs Brighton was from a set piece.

So yeah, that's two goals from corners this season (although none of them was scored with the first touch of the ball after the corner was taken - which I believe is the measurement used for the stat refered to), five from set-pieces.
 
I'm one of those that believes in practicing set play moves corners, free kicks, penalties, penalty shoot-outs
its how and when you practise these set plays,
for me I would have say 4 free kick moves, 4/5 corner moves, all of these are practised in training, as well as those spontaneous moves
with penalty shoots players say its the walk up that plays with the mind, so you add that in, with others trying to put you off,
when I coached kids ( did it at school so new girls, boys team of mixed ages every year) we practised kick offs, (you may only get 1 a game)
I would say it we either had a goal or a shot on target from nearly all of the kick offs
we also practised throw-in moves
when these children 10-11 yrs old they would come forward with ideas for moves, so my "robotizing" their moves at younger age gave them ideas for the future
 
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Pirate55 said:
If you believe that 25-33% stat, then you demonstrate a slavish reliance on stats. Better to try and watch our games and recall all the wonderfully creative goals we create and score from corners.

BTW, if the legendary SAF felt it was necessary to practice corners to give his teams the edge, who are you or I to disagree.
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I said that I hadn't checked but had no reason to doubt the figure, hardly a slavish devotion to stats, whatever that is supposed to mean. If we are to compare us against other clubs, which is the essence of your argument, I do not see how that can be done without the use of stats.

Presumably you would consider Guardiola and Mourinho's opinions on corners in a similar regard to Ferguson's.
 
Daisuk said:
So yeah, that's two goals from corners this season (although none of them was scored with the first touch of the ball after the corner was taken - which I believe is the measurement used for the stat refered to), five from set-pieces.
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Opta's definition is:

Pattern of play for Goals/Attempts

Set Piece goals/attempts are those where the ball starts from a dead ball situation such as a corner, a free kick, a penalty or a Throw-in and results in a shot before the phase of play has broken down into open play.

The exact point at which it becomes open play is usually clear but set pieces which are cleared and then the ball is put straight back into the penalty area are still deemed to be part of the set piece as the defending team is still positioned to deal with the set play.

- See more at: http://optasports.com/news-area/blog-optas-event-definitions.aspx#sthash.TSN9EwRZ.dpuf

Opta have us down as having scored four goals from crossed free kicks (none from direct) and three goals from corners. That's the most goals in the league from indirect free kicks and about average for corners. Only five teams in the league have scored from a direct free kick and only Liverpool and Chelsea have two goals from direct free kicks.

From all set pieces (including penalties) we have the seventh highest return this season. Emirates Marketing Project are running away with this with 13 goals (but four of these are penalties). You then have four teams with nine goals, two with eight and then us, Liverpool and Stoke with seven.

http://www.squawka.com/football-tea...any#any#season#1#all-matches#cross#desc#total
 
milo said:
Opta's definition is:

Pattern of play for Goals/Attempts

Set Piece goals/attempts are those where the ball starts from a dead ball situation such as a corner, a free kick, a penalty or a Throw-in and results in a shot before the phase of play has broken down into open play.

The exact point at which it becomes open play is usually clear but set pieces which are cleared and then the ball is put straight back into the penalty area are still deemed to be part of the set piece as the defending team is still positioned to deal with the set play.

- See more at: http://optasports.com/news-area/blog-optas-event-definitions.aspx#sthash.TSN9EwRZ.dpuf

Opta have us down as having scored four goals from crossed free kicks (none from direct) and three goals from corners. That's the most goals in the league from indirect free kicks and about average for corners. Only five teams in the league have scored from a direct free kick and only Liverpool and Chelsea have two goals from direct free kicks.

From all set pieces (including penalties) we have the seventh highest return this season. Emirates Marketing Project are running away with this with 13 goals (but four of these are penalties). You then have four teams with nine goals, two with eight and then us, Liverpool and Stoke with seven.

http://www.squawka.com/football-tea...any#any#season#1#all-matches#cross#desc#total
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Thanks. I seem to remember a different definition in the article I read a few months back citing the 3% stat, but will have to look that up.
 
Daisuk said:
Thanks. I was referring to the stat saying only 3% of corners results in goals, where I'm pretty sure the definition of goal was if the first touch after the corner kick itself resulted in a goal. I need to look that up though. :)
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That was the definition used in the Github analysis I linked to on p.18 of this thread but the return was 2% which is the same as in The Numbers Game.

I am trying to find some Opta data on total corners so that we can do a comparison with the more generous, passage of play definition.
 
braineclipse said:
A healthy scepticism of stats is a good thing. That's not what you're representing in this argument imo.

You have an education including statistics, but you return again and again to a small handful of cherry picked examples. It's literally like terms like small sample size and high variance mean nothing to you. What is the value of these individual data points out of context from a statistical point of view? In your educated opinion.

Yes, no goals directly from a set piece. Find me statistics for other teams using that definition with a good sample size.
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https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy
 
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Pirate55 said:
If you believe that 25-33% stat, then you demonstrate a slavish reliance on stats. Better to try and watch our games and recall all the wonderfully creative goals we create and score from corners.

BTW, if the legendary SAF felt it was necessary to practice corners to give his teams the edge, who are you or I to disagree.
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I listed 4 of the 5 (I think) ages ago, along with match commentary.

You instantly dismissed it as they didnt fit your very narrow view of what a set piece goal is.

The thing with something like OPTA, is that is has a set definition of what something is. And therefore accurately measures this. And therefore - so long as you understand/accept that definition, the stats are meaningful/accurate.

Of course, what people read into those stats is up for debate, and thats often where things get interesting.

Reading this thread though, there is no debate. Youve decided upon a very narrow view of a small part of the game, decided it is of utmost importance, made a big deal of it - and then disagreed with absolutely everyone else.

Is it any surprise the thread is really limping along?
 
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You'd expect the chances of a goal on the counter attack to increase if the team with the corner committed more men forward.

I believe that Liverpool changed their tactics and kept more men back after being hit on the break a few times last season.
 
milo said:
You'd expect the chances of a goal on the counter attack to increase if the team with the corner committed more men forward.

I believe that Liverpool changed their tactics and kept more men back after being hit on the break a few times last season.
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If the source of a counter attack is a corner, it increases the likelihood of that counter ending in a goal by 40% according to that article.
 
scaramanga said:
If the source of a counter attack is a corner, it increases the likelihood of that counter ending in a goal by 40% according to that article.
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I saw an article earlier this season saying that City, Liverpool and us had all started bringing 11 men back for corners we are defending and setting them for the counter. Obviously, it is something that Leicester used very effectively a couple of seasons ago.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I listed 4 of the 5 (I think) ages ago, along with match commentary.

You instantly dismissed it as they didnt fit your very narrow view of what a set piece goal is.

The thing with something like OPTA, is that is has a set definition of what something is. And therefore accurately measures this. And therefore - so long as you understand/accept that definition, the stats are meaningful/accurate.

Of course, what people read into those stats is up for debate, and thats often where things get interesting.

Reading this thread though, there is no debate. Youve decided upon a very narrow view of a small part of the game, decided it is of utmost importance, made a big deal of it - and then disagreed with absolutely everyone else.

Is it any surprise the thread is really limping along?
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How funny it is that you think you described us scoring from four out of five corners, yet the latest stat says we have in fact only scored from two corners this season!!!!!

Without wishing to sound patronising, to illucidate us all, please would you repeat your descriptions of our goals from corners. Not simply saying, “following a corner .......x scored”.But rather, something like “Eriksen took a corner from the left, straight onto y’s head and he placed his header into the far corner”. Bet you can’t do that for 5 corner “goals” this season.

My whole point is that we simply don’t ‘create’ enough goals - or even goal chances - from corners. A major part of the reason for this in my view is that the starting position of our players for corners is far too near the opposition goal and does not allow them to run and attack the ball. We have many good headers of the ball in our team and our lack of return from corners is unbelievably disappointing. To start on the edge of the six yard box when an out swinging corner is being taken is simply cretinous.

Finally, don’t you find it strange that the most successful manager in PL history decided corners were sufficiently important to give his team an edge that he actually spent time practicing them?
 
We were unlucky with one yesterday, Sanchez got his head to one, good delivery -- can't remember who took it though, I think it was Eriksen.

Sanchez, Wanyama and Toby all in the team should see us score a few more from set-pieces as they have the strength to lose their marker in the box and the height to get their head to the ball. Lamela playing more will help too, as he takes the best corners imo.
 
Pirate55 said:
How funny it is that you think you described us scoring from four out of five corners, yet the latest stat says we have in fact only scored from two corners this season!!!!!

Without wishing to sound patronising, to illucidate us all, please would you repeat your descriptions of our goals from corners. Not simply saying, “following a corner .......x scored”.But rather, something like “Eriksen took a corner from the left, straight onto y’s head and he placed his header into the far corner”. Bet you can’t do that for 5 corner “goals” this season.

My whole point is that we simply don’t ‘create’ enough goals - or even goal chances - from corners. A major part of the reason for this in my view is that the starting position of our players for corners is far too near the opposition goal and does not allow them to run and attack the ball. We have many good headers of the ball in our team and our lack of return from corners is unbelievably disappointing. To start on the edge of the six yard box when an out swinging corner is being taken is simply cretinous.

Finally, don’t you find it strange that the most successful manager in PL history decided corners were sufficiently important to give his team an edge that he actually spent time practicing them?
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At the time I made the post, however long ago it was - the conversation was around set pieces.

And I listed the match commentary for all those set pieces bar one I coudnt find.

And then you said "NO! THATS NOT SET PIECE ENOUGH!" which made the whole thing pointless. Which is what Ive tried pointing out to you.

There is definition of what a set piece is as per Opta, it is agreed and understood, and it is measurable. By that definition, a definition which you are the sole person to have an issue with, we have scored from 5.

That you are a special snowflake who wont accept it is not really my problem, so I dont see why I have to pander to the specificity of your personal special definition.

I was just pointing out the silliness of the situation.
 
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