Politics, politics, politics

[StephenH]

We are paying a very heavy price for a dysfunctional and out of date party system.
The Tories are still living in the past and are completely split.
A functional Labour party died some years ago, it though won't lie down.

 

[Grays_1890]

Serious question, what if what you voted for doesn't work? That whatever the configeration, it doesn't bring the benifits that were promised? What then?

Well it will work but will have varying success, in the EU we have had varying levels of success and failure, its no difference, the country isnt going to be evaporated into thin air. Its also about adapting, with new opportunities come times to change, countries always evolve and reskill and reskill to the next opportunity that comes. This is no different in my view.

The issue I have with the question here is I can't ask the same back, but I suppose I could ask, what if remain is wrong, what is there is a better place out there full of opportunities thaty are yet to be uncovered, seems remain are happy to go with the status quo rather than take that leap, which is fair enough, but remain could be wrong too......

 

[SpurMeUp]

Well it will work but will have varying success, in the EU we have had varying levels of success and failure, its no difference, the country isnt going to be evaporated into thin air. Its also about adapting, with new opportunities come times to change, countries always evolve and reskill and reskill to the next opportunity that comes. This is no different in my view.

The issue I have with the question here is I can't ask the same back, but I suppose I could ask, what if remain is wrong, what is there is a better place out there full of opportunities thaty are yet to be uncovered, seems remain are happy to go with the status quo rather than take that leap, which is fair enough, but remain could be wrong too......

Good questions that we should be answering. We know what Remain or membership has brought. It has little to do with the things flagged in the vote campaign. The UK pre-union memship was far far poorer. It has allowed us to trade freely in the worlds largest trading block. Coordinate on things like pollution controls, worker rights, disability rights etc. We know what it has brought. The main thing has been increased wealth in the UK, which went from being far behind Germany and France economically to being equal or surpassing them. Increased trade gives us more money for services, NHS, schools etc. We're setup to trade, to exploit this large market more than a lot of EU members, but we could do more, with a more concerted effort to increase out exports in the EU. All countries everywhere - all - trade most with their neighbours.

You can ask the same back, but you don't seem able to outline the benfits of leave. That is a real problem. Becuase if there are no tragible benifits, how could a politician deliver value to you and the rest of us?

 

[the dza]

All of which should have happened the first time.

As it didnt, the government is essentially making it up as they go along.

They have no actual, definitive remit as the referendum was so poorly put together.

Now they are at a stage of very definite consequence - they really should have that remit clarified.

To go with a Soft Brexit is the worst of all worlds and satisfies no one.

IMHO its either all in our all out, not a bastardised half way stop.

Agree with all of this, apart from I think that a soft brexit is preferable to a hard Brexit that the country isn't properly prepared for.

If there is a 2nd referendum, I also agree that the honest choice should be between remain and no-deal Brexit, all-in/all-out as you put it. I don't know if Parliament will agree on this being the choice, I do not think they would vote to put no-deal on the ballot.

 

[StephenH]

If there is a 2nd referendum, I also agree that the honest choice should be between remain and no-deal Brexit, all-in/all-out as you put it.

This!
But you all know it won't be so straightforward with the current bunch cowboys in power.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Agree with all of this, apart from I think that a soft brexit is preferable to a hard Brexit that the country isn't properly prepared for.

If there is a 2nd referendum, I also agree that the honest choice should be between remain and no-deal Brexit, all-in/all-out as you put it. I don't know if Parliament will agree on this being the choice, I do not think they would vote to put no-deal on the ballot.

Ive said many times, we should have taken on a hard Brexit with gusto. With ambition, some positivity, and made a real fist of it.

I still think a trading deal could, and should, be done with the EU - but lets be bold and go for it.

Obviously that simply hasnt materialised, and its fudging shameful how meek our "leaders" really are.

Partly I still like the idea of hard Brexit. Itll be painful, no doubt, but itll also really shake things up. Could be the sort of situation where by in 20 years we'll look back at it as the day we started taking a charge in how things should be.

Get in some proper politicians, proper leaders, people with ambition (for the country), drive and vision.

Lets get some gumption going, invigorate industry, get society a bit more engaged and forward looking...

Maybe a bit of a romantic notion, but I like it.

Its the sort of thing that hardship would encourage. And the sort of thing that would never happen with a soft Brexit. We would just become a nation of scousers, playing the victim to the big bad EU...


If there is a referendum and its all in/out. Im genuinely tempted to vote out.

If theres a referendum and its soft/Mays deal or remain, then Id probably vote Remain. Least worst kind of situation.

 

[the dza]

Ive said many times, we should have taken on a hard Brexit with gusto. With ambition, some positivity, and made a real fist of it.

I still think a trading deal could, and should, be done with the EU - but lets be bold and go for it.

Obviously that simply hasnt materialised, and its fudging shameful how meek our "leaders" really are.

I think the problem is that the politicians who advocate for hard-Brexit did not do so honestly in the campaign to leave, they over-simplified. So when it comes time to legislate, they aren't prepared to say "let's have a 5 year transition, build all the warehouse space we need to cope without just-in-time delivery" or whatever is required. Instead, they all just stick to the story of how easy it would be and now there's no time left they say "well, let's just go anyway." Johnson in particular has sh1t the bed imo.

All sides need to be honest. Remain needs to be honest about free-movement and various other things. The first referendum was a badly thought-out question with dis-honest campaigning. I don't have much faith that, if it's done again, the question will be satisfactory or the campaigning will be much better. We live in hope I suppose.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think the problem is that the politicians who advocate for hard-Brexit did not do so honestly in the campaign to leave, they over-simplified. So when it comes time to legislate, they aren't prepared to say "let's have a 5 year transition, build all the warehouse space we need to cope without just-in-time delivery" or whatever is required. Instead, they all just stick to the story of how easy it would be and now there's no time left they say "well, let's just go anyway." Johnson in particular has sh1t the bed imo.

All sides need to be honest. Remain needs to be honest about free-movement and various other things. The first referendum was a badly thought-out question with dis-honest campaigning. I don't have much faith that, if it's done again, the question will be satisfactory or the campaigning will be much better. We live in hope I suppose.

I dont disagree. Nobody came out of the campaign with any credibility, IMO. And it was always clear many were just running a game to suit their own personal ambitions.

As if we didnt know already, the whole show confirmed - our politicians dont represent us, or what is best for us. They are self serving career merchants.

That is a fundamental crisis, IMHO. Burn it all down!

 

[SpurMeUp]

Ive said many times, we should have taken on a hard Brexit with gusto. With ambition, some positivity, and made a real fist of it.

I still think a trading deal could, and should, be done with the EU - but lets be bold and go for it.

Obviously that simply hasnt materialised, and its fudging shameful how meek our "leaders" really are.

Partly I still like the idea of hard Brexit. Itll be painful, no doubt, but itll also really shake things up. Could be the sort of situation where by in 20 years we'll look back at it as the day we started taking a charge in how things should be.

Get in some proper politicians, proper leaders, people with ambition (for the country), drive and vision.

Lets get some gumption going, invigorate industry, get society a bit more engaged and forward looking...

Maybe a bit of a romantic notion, but I like it.

Its the sort of thing that hardship would encourage. And the sort of thing that would never happen with a soft Brexit. We would just become a nation of scousers, playing the victim to the big bad EU...


If there is a referendum and its all in/out. Im genuinely tempted to vote out.

If theres a referendum and its soft/Mays deal or remain, then Id probably vote Remain. Least worst kind of situation.

Hard Brexit is not some idolised Brits against the rest oppotunity, sadly. It's same old, while seriously hurting our trade. How do you "invigorate industry" while handicapping it? Overnight we'd lose things like car manufacturing. Many many jobs would go. Jobs that we would not be able to get back in all likihood. And no one can outline how we'd get more commerce in the new setup, why aren't we getting this commerce now? This romantiscised vision doesn't stack up to scrunity. It's all emotive, but light on any detail about how things would work. I like your sentiment, but its misplaced, and isn't dealing with reality.

 

[StephenH]

Nobody came out of the campaign with any credibility, IMO.

There were some who were deliberately down right devious and malevolent with thier leave messages, this played straight to the ‘hard of thinking’ brigades, not too far removed from Trumps, and I use the word loosely ‘strategy’.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

There were some who were deliberately down right devious and malevolent with thier leave messages, this played straight to the ‘hard of thinking’ brigades, not too far removed from Trumps, and I use the word loosely ‘strategy’.

Not just on leave side. Corbyn wants to leave, so basically betrayed his party line on remain.

As well as the fact none on remain actually managed to articulate WHY it would be good to do so. Instead taking a rather condescending tone about it.

As I say, I dont think anyone came out with any credibility, but yes - some were definitely worse than others. Boris should be shot.

 

[P.D.]

Not seen it yet but I wonder if either party is bold enough to propose a referendum with the only options being various leaves ones instead with an alternative vote system in place for it. That's the only way I could support a referendum.

 

[StephenH]

Not just on leave side. Corbyn wants to leave, so basically betrayed his party line on remain.

As well as the fact none on remain actually managed to articulate WHY it would be good to do so. Instead taking a rather condescending tone about it.

As I say, I dont think anyone came out with any credibility, but yes - some were definitely worse than others. Boris should be shot.

Boris agreed!
Corbyn is just not fit for purpose. Don’t think I would dislike him as a person or for that matter Theresa. But Jessa is a ditherer and does my head in!

Both sides of the total horlicks need to be made to pickup rubbish for a month around their constituencies as an admonishment.

 

[the dza]

Not seen it yet but I wonder if either party is bold enough to propose a referendum with the only options being various leaves ones instead with an alternative vote system in place for it. That's the only way I could support a referendum.

This is something I initially thought, when we discussed this awhile ago in this thread -- that the options should be on how we leave, as the decision to leave has already been taken. And I'd go for Norway+/Soft-Brexit, whatever you want to call it. But then Nayim and others pointed out that if we have that, we might as well have Remain, as Remain is better than soft-Brexit (most would argue).

So then if you have Remain v multiple choices of leave, it hurts the leave vote. So you end up going back to the definitive choice of Remain or No-Deal Brexit.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I suppose the alternative would be to vote down the leave options until one remains, then present it against remain.

 

[Rorschach]

Not just on leave side. Corbyn wants to leave, so basically betrayed his party line on remain.

As well as the fact none on remain actually managed to articulate WHY it would be good to do so. Instead taking a rather condescending tone about it.

As I say, I dont think anyone came out with any credibility, but yes - some were definitely worse than others. Boris should be shot.

With balls of Farage's brick

 

[r-u-s-x]

I suppose the alternative would be to vote down the leave options until one remains, then present it against remain.

You can do it with one vote, lots of other countries use transferable voting.

 

[markysimmo]

I enjoyed Gove’s speech just now

 

[monkeybarry]

Hardly "confidence"

Welcome back to limbo

 

[scaramanga]

Worst. Opposition leader. Ever.

To fail to get a majority over that complete fudging shambles should shame him back into the beardy cycling tofu tavern that he crawled out of. Bet it won't though.