Baleforce
Ron Henry
I’m not suggesting that. My point is that decisions of such magnitude which lock an economy on a path for decades shouldn’t be decided on a hastily arranged binary public vote where one of the choices has an undefined outcome.
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
I’m not suggesting that. My point is that decisions of such magnitude which lock an economy on a path for decades shouldn’t be decided on a hastily arranged binary public vote where one of the choices has an undefined outcome.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
I doubt that would change anything, Corbyn seems to be on the same page as May regarding Brexit.
ShipOfTheseus
Clint Dempsey
Not quite. He’s similar on freedom of movement, and has his own problems with the single market, mainly state aid. He doesn’t have any interest in independent trade deals, though, and is relaxed about EUCJ jurisdiction over most things.
A Corbyn Brexit would be softer than a May Brexit. It would still be harder than the EEA option, though, which puts him on the other side of quite a few leavers. Still, it makes it unlikely that too many Labour MPs of the Caroline Flint or Lisa Nandy stripe would consider keeping May in power to secure her version of Chequers, as quite a few sources have been suggestiong.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
The whole point of referendums are they are once in a generation. Everyone knew that in 2016. Otherwise why did we have to wait 40 years after the 1975 one for a second Brexit one? We should have been able to rerun that every 5 years. I'm well on board for putting the 3rd referendum in the calendar - on applying to rejoin the EU - for the year 2056.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
It won't change anything on Brexit though - Corbyn's much more devout a leaver than anyone but Fox in the current cabinet, plus he knows his vote relies on the north and midland voters who abandoned UKIP in 2017.
Labour will just get clogged up with all the divorce stuff instead, rather than being able to implement a radical domestic agenda, like they would in 2022.
Off the top of my head, the thing that would immediately change re. Brexit (if Labour took power) would be a commitment to a/the Customs Union, along with enshrining worker and environmental protections and standards in primary legislation. That alone paints a different picture to a Johnson/Rees-Mogg Brexit. And that's just the starting point for negotiations.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Starmer is only there to appease the Umunna faction. Corbyn would bin him and his plans the second he took power.
Corbyn would actually be much further from what the EU would tolerate than May is. May's already signed up to the EU state aid, tendering and competition laws, which Corbyn will immediately rip up (as they will be manifesto commitments). She's still within their neo-liberal sphere, whereas he'd bring in big protectionist reorientation that they absolutely couldn't tolerate
Baleforce
Ron Henry
Customs union = FoM though, we have a land border with the EU, that’s not going to change.
Customs Union doesn't = FoM as far as I'm aware. FoM is a pre-requisite of Single Market membership, but not to be in a Customs Union.
Starmer is there because he has a very good legal mind, that's my opinion on why he's there. Saying he'll get binned etc. is just speculation based on very little evidence. Corbyn is further away (than May) from the EU in some ways and closer to it in others. But the commitment to customs union, worker and environmental protections and standards is already there from Labour. This is much closer to the EU than any Tory position put forward so far.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
I meant in the context of the deal we are after, we want to keep things for which the EU would require FoM.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
It's not just the customs union's incompatibility with renationalisation that the problem - it's a barrier to the whole moving away from globalisation direction. The customs tariffs don't suit Labour's long term tax and spend plans. They'll surely need to raise import tariffs to protect jobs and insulate British industries from undercutting
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
Oh how witty and clever of you. Linking something you disagree with to masturbation.
Actually thank you that one remark has changed my whole view on the issue. I will now side with remain.
Jeez I wonder about people sometimes I really do. You guys pretend you have the moral high ground but seem so quick to result to insults. Strange behaviour.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I don't think that's the case - the 1923 common travel area solves that. Irish citizens pass freely while EU26 won't be able to.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
In relation to what we are asking for, Thornberry said on Marr this morning that she wants a custom union with services, that would equal FoM.
Ah ok. Yes, I'd agree. It's up to whoever is in government to make the trade-off between single market access and obligations. We know for certain that the Tories cannot get decent access because they rule out FoM, they refuse to be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ and they want a bonfire of regulations re. workers and the environment (which is why they refuse to enshrine these protections in primary legislation). They have so many red lines, with a hard-line faction in their party making negotiation and compromise very difficult.
Labour's starting point might not be perfect from the viewpoint of a remain voter, but it is much better than the Tory position as things stand, imo. And the makeup of the Labour Party allows more room for manoeuvre than is possible for the Tory Party.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
That’s true, but I think in the grand scheme of things the differences are trivialities, every version of leave being discussed completely fudges the economy.
Re. Customs Union and renationalisation -- I believe that's why Labour say "a" Customs Union instead of "the" Customs Union. Maybe the EU would say "get phucked" and maybe they wouldn't. But I would say, from the point of view of remain voters, this starting position for negotiation is preferable to the Tory one, which says "no customs union." With regard tariffs, I just don't have any knowledge on that to be able to give you a sensible reply. I'd simply say that I don't expect any solution to be perfect, there is going to have to be compromise.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Thornberry is the ultimate north London champagne socialist though. I'd expect her to have a different view to Labour MPs representing working class constituencies (i.e. the majority of them).
