Politics, politics, politics

[Rorschach]

As hunter-gatherers (95% of human existence), people used to work about 17 hours a week. That is seen as optimum from an evolutionary point of view. The expectation of a 35/37 hour working week is a modern construct. So it's less work, rather than no work. And sharing round the useful jobs, rather than inventing pointless ones to keep people controlled.

It will be more like everyone is semi-retired. Maybe broadly splitting time in thirds between learning, earning and leisure. There will definitely be more time for arts, sports, lifelong education and socialising. It will be based on individual choice though (and work will still reward), rather than being wage slaves.

Here's an article which covers it in a Five Star context, especially this paragraph: http://www.demsoc.org/2014/04/22/five-star-movement/

The party supports free internet, pacifism, same-sex marriage, large-scale energy projects and teleworking. Economically it is anti-austerity. It also has anti-tax views. It also supports ‘degrowth’, an ecologist, and anti-capitalist economic policy that views overconsumption as at the heart of environmental problems and social inequality. Degrowth instead suggests well-being is better maximised through sharing work, consuming less, and devoting more time to family, culture and community. The party supports a 20 hour working week, monthly stipends for the unemployment and debt renegotiation.

I only work 17 hrs a week , though I sit here a lot longer.

 

[Gutter Boy]

They are on the extreme right....they are fascists. I'm sick to death of deniers and apologists, there are never any excuses for getting into bed with scum like them. Yeah anti migrant... the fascist dog whistle comment, we all know what that really means. I'll bet they don't have a problem with white migrants. Come on get your arse off that toadstool.

That's not how it works

The two axis to determine political position are pro-equality to anti-equality, and pro-state and anti-state

Pro-equality and pro-state = socialism
Pro-equality and anti-state = anarchism/left-libertarian
Anti-equality and pro-state = fascism
Anti-equality and anti-state = right-libertarian

I don't think it's particularly a race thing for Northern League - they don't even like Southern Italians!

Anyone opposed to neo-liberalism should be anti-migration on some level. That particularly includes the Labour left. Economic migration purely serves to feed the engines of profit and greed. Immigration should be on a highly-skilled, social (spouse/family) and compassionate (refugees/asylum) basis. Mass economic migration is simply extreme capitalism at work and should be countered, like through fairer trade (letting third world countries do manufacturing themselves, rather than tying them to just having their raw materials exploited etc).

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

On that basis I am a right-libertarian though I shall be voting for Corbyn next time and I dont think he is that so tells you a lot about the lack of choice in our elections.

Like you Gutterboy I like the greens and green issues. But I also believe we need to build more motorways and bypasses(particularly along the A23) also do not mind shale gas, but would like the country to make a move towards veganism and also aiming to be completely reliable on renewable energy at some point in the future.

Wonder how much the evil EU are bribing the Italians with to keep them sweet on the EU, hope it is so much that it breaks the European bank and when the next crash comes it wipes out the continent and the pieces of brick in it who voted for a federal state giving up democracy.

 

[Gutter Boy]

On that basis I am a right-libertarian though I shall be voting for Corbyn next time and I dont think he is that so tells you a lot about the lack of choice in our elections.

Like you Gutterboy I like the greens and green issues. But I also believe we need to build more motorways and bypasses(particularly along the A23) also do not mind shale gas, but would like the country to make a move towards veganism and also aiming to be completely reliable on renewable energy at some point in the future.

Wonder how much the evil EU are bribing the Italians with to keep them sweet on the EU, hope it is so much that it breaks the European bank and when the next crash comes it wipes out the continent and the pieces of brick in it who voted for a federal state giving up democracy.

I'm actually pro-travel (including private travel and planes)

If we are working/producing/consuming less though, that immediately gets rid of a lot of the commuting/freight traffic, which leaves things much better for personal, social and domestic use.

Another green policy is localism - consuming stuff nearer to where it is produced, breaking international supply chains and having more craft production (a continuity theme from the Arts & Crafts Movement), which again cuts boring travel while not restricting fun travel.

Pollution free travel will come in the next decade or two when windfarms and solar panels provide all the energy for them.

Fracking is pure evil though. Humanity's worst invention since CFCs and thalidomide.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I'm actually pro-travel (including private travel and planes)

If we are working/producing/consuming less though, that immediately gets rid of a lot of the commuting/freight traffic, which leaves things much better for personal, social and domestic use.

Another green policy is localism - consuming stuff nearer to where it is produced, breaking international supply chains and having more craft production (a continuity theme from the Arts & Crafts Movement), which again cuts boring travel while not restricting fun travel.

Pollution free travel will come in the next decade or two when windfarms and solar panels provide all the energy for them.

Fracking is pure evil though. Humanity's worst invention since CFCs and thalidomide.

But if it happens mainly in the north it is a necessary evil.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

That's not how it works

The two axis to determine political position are pro-equality to anti-equality, and pro-state and anti-state

Pro-equality and pro-state = socialism
Pro-equality and anti-state = anarchism/left-libertarian
Anti-equality and pro-state = fascism
Anti-equality and anti-state = right-libertarian

I don't think it's particularly a race thing for Northern League - they don't even like Southern Italians!

Anyone opposed to neo-liberalism should be anti-migration on some level. That particularly includes the Labour left. Economic migration purely serves to feed the engines of profit and greed. Immigration should be on a highly-skilled, social (spouse/family) and compassionate (refugees/asylum) basis. Mass economic migration is simply extreme capitalism at work and should be countered, like through fairer trade (letting third world countries do manufacturing themselves, rather than tying them to just having their raw materials exploited etc).

"They don't even like southern Italians," yes that's right and do you know why....? It's because they are fascist racist scum. They refer to southerners as 'blacks' and refuse to consider them as real Italians because they believe them to have originated from North Africa. My GHod, you are so naïve and Ill informed. What uni did you go to again?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

On that basis I am a right-libertarian though I shall be voting for Corbyn next time and I dont think he is that so tells you a lot about the lack of choice in our elections.

Like you Gutterboy I like the greens and green issues. But I also believe we need to build more motorways and bypasses(particularly along the A23) also do not mind shale gas, but would like the country to make a move towards veganism and also aiming to be completely reliable on renewable energy at some point in the future.

Wonder how much the evil EU are bribing the Italians with to keep them sweet on the EU, hope it is so much that it breaks the European bank and when the next crash comes it wipes out the continent and the pieces of brick in it who voted for a federal state giving up democracy.

You must mean the A27?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

You must mean the A27?

Yep my bad, Worthing, Lancing, Arundel and Chichester all need bypasses. Other side towards Eastbourne needs to be dual carriageway all the way. South east is most populated part of tje country we need more roads.

A road takes up what 100 metres at most in width. Plenty of countryside around it. I love the environment but we have to stop being scared about a weirdo group of tree huggers and get business moving.

Would also build a massive park and ride outside brighton, that town is a nightmare to drive in.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Yep my bad, Worthing, Lancing, Arundel and Chichester all need bypasses. Other side towards Eastbourne needs to be dual carriageway all the way. South east is most populated part of tje country we need more roads.

A road takes up what 100 metres at most in width. Plenty of countryside around it. I love the environment but we have to stop being scared about a weirdo group of tree huggers and get business moving.

Would also build a massive park and ride outside brighton, that town is a nightmare to drive in.

How long have they been talking about though. Jeez.

By the time they get round to it we will all be travelling by drones.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Is there any scientific basis to any of that?

The argument that it's something humans have done throughout history doesn't sound a particularly strong one to me. Apart from the fact that it falls into the naturalistic fallacy, we also had a lot of really bad stuff happen to us throughout history - both by our own hands and that of the natural world.

Didn’t one of the Scandinavian countries do a pilot with 1000s paid a universal credit amount each month? I don’t think it was a great success. It’s basically like signing on. What is the difference?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Didn’t one of the Scandinavian countries do a pilot with 1000s paid a universal credit amount each month? I don’t think it was a great success. It’s basically like signing on. What is the difference?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Finland tried it. Cut the trial time in half and changed the rules so people had to take training. From its original premise, it was a diaster.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Didn’t one of the Scandinavian countries do a pilot with 1000s paid a universal credit amount each month? I don’t think it was a great success. It’s basically like signing on. What is the difference?

The difference is that everyone gets it. It's like state pension, but for all ages (U16s only get half amount). It's set at the level of about state pension too - i.e. enough to get by, but not quite comfortable. It then sits alongside a 28 hour maximum working week (later dropping to 21 hours).

The idea is to free everyone from work, to create more time for family, community, learning, arts, leisure etc. It would also solve the social care and child care crises in a sweep, as they would be brought back into the family.

It also helps with wealth distribution and spreading round the smaller number of post-automation jobs.

 

[Parklaner81]

The idea is to free everyone from work, to create more time for family, community, learning, arts, leisure etc. It would also solve the social care and child care crises in a sweep, as they would be brought back into the family.

This is all well and good and sounds fantastic for the proportion of society that are inclined to such pursuits.

But I'm sure that there also exists a sizeable chunk for whom (full time) work provides a sense of stability, discipline and/or meaning in their lives, without which they might well succumb to less 'wholesome' activities. Surely such a policy has potentially disastrous consequences in that sense?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

All sounds fine and dandy, but I dont really see how businesses are supposed to operate when their staff suddenly work at 55% the usual capacity.

I know my place would fold.

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is all well and good and sounds fantastic for the proportion of society that are inclined to such pursuits.

But I'm sure that there also exists a sizeable chunk for whom (full time) work provides a sense of stability, discipline and/or meaning in their lives, without which they might well succumb to less 'wholesome' activities. Surely such a policy has potentially disastrous consequences in that sense?

That's a similar kind of argument that created Sunday drinking laws a hundred years ago. Or what might happen if you gave votes to women. I.e. what would happen if the underclass became less dependent/freer?

I guess for certain groups with addictive personalities you might need provision to ensure UBI is actually spent on housing and food (vouchers rather than cash etc.).

The greater social cohesion caused by the strengthen of family and community should also act as a check

There's also the utilitarian argument - you are significantly improving the lives of the entire middle and working classes - 90% of the population. That's got to be worth the consequence that a vulnerable 5% will have more opportunity to fall into excess.

 

[Gutter Boy]

All sounds fine and dandy, but I dont really see how businesses are supposed to operate when their staff suddenly work at 55% the usual capacity.

I know my place would fold.

You employ extra staff. It's about sharing out the work. 10 staff working 35 hours = 350 hours, 12.5 staff working 28 hours = 350 hours, or 16.7 staff working 21 hours = 350 hours.

People share the jobs that matter and stop doing the valueless ones. There would also be a rebalancing away from consumption and care jobs, towards education and leisure ones

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Again, a nice theory, but doing what I do - its hard enough to recruit now - Im not sure the market would support what you are talking about.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Again, a nice theory, but doing what I do - its hard enough to recruit now - Im not sure the market would support what you are talking about.

Increasing automation and ending all but highly-skilled economic migration should create the slack.

The point is actually to destroy the market. Have the world run for society, rather than run for the economy.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I work in data, its a skilled job and one we are struggling to recruit for as it is.

My company, being an insurance company, relies almost completely on said data and its consequent analysis. Developers are hard to find now, we quite simply could not get in even more than we struggle to now to accommodate your utopia.

As I said, it all sounds very nice, but I cannot see how it is in anyway practical or actionable, or even affordable.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

UBI is based on a false premise, that being that work is solely to derive income. This will lead to increased levels of community disengagement because there will be far less responsibility on the individual. Individuals will also more importantly be less politically engaged. They will alsotake far less notice of the political process. It's all a bit of a ponsy scheme to me anyway.