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Politics, politics, politics

r-u-s-x said:
Its longer term than that - over the last 40 years we have been moving towards the US market place and even if Corbyn wins I would guess this is just a small blip. I believe that BREXIT was mainly diven by some Tories and big businesses (including media) not wanting to give low cost labour the same rights as the native labour force and in the longer term removing some of the rights given to us by the EU. I do not think we will reduce net migration just we will not have to pay them working tax credits or any other benefits that we need to give the native voting population.

This is what I believe will happen not what I want to happen,
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I don't think Brexit has ever been driven. It's a popular reaction to 4 decades of suppression by Thatcherite neo-liberalism. Of society becoming subordinate to the economy, rather than the other way round. A kick back against big business and the mechanisms like the EU that enable it

Keynesianism lasted 35 odd years (1942-1977) as the economic consensus before it was replaced. I think the same is happening now with neo-liberalism. Corbyn's socialism isn't the answer for the post-work age, but it's a step in the right direction
 
Hotshot-Tottenham said:
I found this...

Seven out of ten international students came from non-EU countries in 2016, and 60% were female in 2015.

According to IPS estimates, international students come primarily from non-EU countries. In 2016, about 70% of students moving to the UK came from non-EU countries (92,000 out of 132,000).
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Yeah - foreign students are generally Chinese or American

EU student numbers have dwindled over the past 15 or so years because they pay the same fees as UK students, whereas RoW ones pay three times as much. Therefore universities recruit up to their caps with non-EU ones, because they are much better value.
 
Gutter Boy said:
But you should count them when they are given work visas, not when they turn up as 18 year olds

Also graduates are the skilled workers you want to keep, rather than the unskilled ones who are imported by big business to undercut wages.
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Really depends on the purpose for which you are reporting.
The most likely measures are for nhs, housing stock and infrastructure impact.
They will contribute to GDP during their time here and draw from the public purse.

Presenting them separately is logical, but if you apply that principle you also need to seperate out fixed term contract workers.
But we wouldn't want to confuse the kind of people that easily believe such headlines
 
r-u-s-x said:
I know you don't agree but I think Brexit is the greatest weapon to destroy worker's rights. Regardless of FOM I doubt very much that importation of low cost labour will go down.
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A thousand times this. Anyone that thinks a Tory Brexit will lead to more workers rights and be better for the uk working class is clearly on crack... Or might as well be.
 
DTA said:
A thousand times this. Anyone that thinks a Tory Brexit will lead to more workers rights and be better for the uk working class is clearly on crack... Or might as well be.
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The Tories are repatriating power. But they won't be the first government to enjoy them
 
Gutter Boy said:
The Tories are repatriating power. But they won't be the first government to enjoy them
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So what you saying is that labour will be in power at the time of Brexit... Just in time for a major economic downturn.... the Tories will then blame them for the catastrophic economic situation and somehow remain the party of prudent economics and when they get back in power say bye bye to the NHS and any kind of welfare state. Sound good to me..... oh hang on a minute no it doesn't it sounds totally brick.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
They're our 'genetic cousins'....don't cha know?.:D
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Yeah, I didn't mean to sound all Enoch Powell there -- I just meant relative to someone who was born and grew up here, with regards bringing their spouse with them (poor and British with a non-EU spouse, sorry you can't live here together; poor and Romanian with a Romanian wife, settle here no problem, start a family no worries). That's just bullsh1t.
 
DTA said:
So what you saying is that labour will be in power at the time of Brexit... Just in time for a major economic downturn.... the Tories will then blame them for the catastrophic economic situation and somehow remain the party of prudent economics and when they get back in power say bye bye to the NHS and any kind of welfare state. Sound good to me..... oh hang on a minute no it doesn't it sounds totally brick.
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The 1945 Attlee government achieved major things, inspite of the external economic situation. We need those kind of fundamental structural changes again
 
Gutter Boy said:
The 1945 Attlee government achieved major things, inspite of the external economic situation. We need those kind of fundamental structural changes again
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Yeah, the Atlee government set the consensus for the next few decades, created the welfare state, NHS, embarked on a program of council house building/slum clearances, nationalisations...and did it all after the country was broke and bombed to sh1t from World War 2. And did it in one term.
 
the dza said:
Yeah, the Atlee government set the consensus for the next few decades, created the welfare state, NHS, embarked on a program of council house building/slum clearances, nationalisations...and did it all after the country was broke and bombed to sh1t from World War 2. And did it in one term.
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Yeah but apart from all that what did they do for us.
 
the dza said:
Yeah, the Atlee government set the consensus for the next few decades, created the welfare state, NHS, embarked on a program of council house building/slum clearances, nationalisations...and did it all after the country was broke and bombed to sh1t from World War 2. And did it in one term.
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- Renationalised energy and rail
- 4 day working week
- Rebalanced economy south-to-north and finance-to-industrial, plus a strategy to reduce production
- Immigration skills-based and managed at levels that lead to a slow net population decrease (this would start to negate the need for housebuilding, apart from replacing old ones)
- Biannual health checks as condition for access to NHS (from reactive to proactive)
- Graduate tax (and optional conversion of old loans to this)
- Stamp duty waived for all houses next sold with solar panels and a small wind turbine, and general commitment to achieving 100% renewables by 2030

Would be some of my hopes for the 2022 government
 
the dza said:
Yeah, the Atlee government set the consensus for the next few decades, created the welfare state, NHS, embarked on a program of council house building/slum clearances, nationalisations...and did it all after the country was broke and bombed to sh1t from World War 2. And did it in one term.
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Democratic socialism's greatest triumph!
 
the dza said:
Yeah, I didn't mean to sound all Enoch Powell there -- I just meant relative to someone who was born and grew up here, with regards bringing their spouse with them (poor and British with a non-EU spouse, sorry you can't live here together; poor and Romanian with a Romanian wife, settle here no problem, start a family no worries). That's just bullsh1t.
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Don't worry, I agree with you, I was just quoting something someone else said on here that I found tenuous at best and ridiculous at worst when used to support any kind of reasoning about a 'connection' between us and europe....it might of been Spursmeup ?
 
r-u-s-x said:
you certainly seem to think things will go the way you want them to - has this happened in the past?
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This is kind of the point. what Gutter boy is suggesting sounds good and in most part I would be on board with a Brexit like that. But it sounds expensive and a little utopian. We are (especially with the torys in charge) in my opinion much more likely to get one that makes us America's bitch making the really rich much richer and everyone else much worse off.
 
Hotshot-Tottenham said:
Some detail here.

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/13120104
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Worth pasting this in. The exit vote looks like a quick way to externalise (or blame) the UKs issues onto something else - the other. When really our UK government have had all the control they need to improve things for our population. But the Ministries are inefficient, and company profit has been more important than peoples real concerns. Not only do more migrants come from outside the EU, this shows we could control EU migration as well if we wanted to:


THE FoM (Freedom of Movement) directive allows for the “old” countries to restrict the rights of migrants from “new” countries for up to 7 years. The powers vary from stopping migration completely or allowing only for selected categories of work on a work permit basis. In 2004 the UK choose not to use this option at all, when the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia joined. The UK was one of only 3 of the original EU members (UK, Sweden and Eire) to choose not to apply transitional restrictions on these eight countries.

EU CITIZENS MUST BE SELF-SUPPORTING. After 3 months in the UK EU migrants need to be either working, have a member of the family working or have sufficient funds to live (and have full sickness insurance). If not then they can be returned to their home country.

The UK does not register migrants as they arrive and as such has no way of knowing how long they have been in the UK. There are no efforts to track or control this movement. This once more allows the EU-skeptics to portray the FoM as “uncontrolled migration”.

In contrast Belgium requires all migrants to register at their Town Hall within 3 months of entering the country and if they intend to work their claim will be assessed and will be processed within 6 months.

The EU gave further confirmation of existing rights to limit free movement in the package given to D. Cameron in February 2016: ‘Whereas the free movement of workers under Article 45 TFEU entails the abolition of any discrimination based on nationality as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment, this right may be subject to limitations on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. In addition, if overriding reasons of public interest make it necessary, free movement of workers may be restricted by measures proportionate to the legitimate aim pursued.’

Why the HELL did Cameron not make more of all this in the campaign? So now we are possibly exiting the EU due to basic ignorance and failures by the Government. Is this a comedy or a tragedy? Should we take note that Theresa May was the Home Secretary dealing with Immigration since 2010?


The UK government chose not to control EU migration.
 
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r-u-s-x said:
you certainly seem to think things will go the way you want them to - has this happened in the past?
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1945 is a good parallel

But also the world hasn't had to cope with mass automisation of white collar jobs and using the resources 1.5 earths are needed to sustain before
 
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