Politics, politics, politics

[Danishfurniturelover]

No you're right . But it reminds me of a discussion from earlier in this thread of peripheral parties promising the earth prior to elections because they know they won't get elected and have to make good on their promises.

Vote Leave made some outlandish claims during their campaign because I genuinely don't believe many of them thought they would win. When they did they back tracked quickly on their pre referendum promises.

It's true neither Leave nor Remain ran campaigns that would win awards for political integrity. But it would seem,at this point, the warnings of the remain have much more veracity than the promises of Leave. Of course that could change but probably not soon.

Remain said several times the were no plans in the EU for an EU army or for the EU to take control of all member nations taxes.

Within a week of the result, Juncker was publically quoted as saying the EU could now get on with both, either the remainers were sold a lie by the EU or they were complict in trying to subvert the British rule of law.

 

[Robspur12]

The last thing the NHS needs is more money, it will go to consultants and pension increases. Not equipment of drugs or extra nurses. The NHS needs to modernise, I say that as someone who is sick and has gone private to get proper care.

Because it is better funded per patient using it. I bet the consultants are better paid in private health care. They simply have to deal with less patients and each part of the treatment process is directly funded by the patient or insurance firm. Same as private education where smaller class sizes tend to lead to higher attainment.

 

[Robspur12]

Remain said several times the were no plans in the EU for an EU army or for the EU to take control of all member nations taxes.

Within a week of the result, Juncker was publically quoted as saying the EU could now get on with both, either the remainers were sold a lie by the EU or they were complict in trying to subvert the British rule of law.

Such a big policy would have needed our agreement so imo it would never have got off the ground.

 

[SpurMeUp]

One of the problems with the EU was that no one in Britain had any emotional connection to it. Western Europe had the war damage/guilt things to put behind them, Southern Europe wanted a clean break from their dictators. Eastern Europe wanted a counter-balance to Russia. Only North Europe (us and the Scandis) could really make a detached cost-benefit decision on it.

We also entered it at a moment of weakness - when the war damage and collapsing empire caught up with us. Therefore it has always felt a bit like a crutch, a restraint, or even a humiliation.

No one on Remain could make a positive case for it, because in no quarters has there ever been any love for it, just tolerance.

And the UK press found a way to report on the dull EU bureaucracy - make it funny and ridicule, which is understandable. NewsPapers need to entertain. Before the shape of bananas, jokes, and Jonny foreigner telling us what to do, any EU 'news' was at best a footnote - a new trade deal etc.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[the dza]

This isn't directly comparable to manifestos written for a general election, which again is fairly obvious.

The point is, that I interpreted the offending bus/poster/whatever as the illustration that it always was, rather than literally. As I'm sure most people did, including most of those who have since turned it into a convenient point of complaint to aid in their efforts to rail against the referendum result (not referring to you in that sense by the way).

It's not directly comparable, but it is comparable in that an offer is being made: "vote for X, get Y (with a 'maybe' in a tiny, tiny font)." I agree with @Robspur12 in that I don't think they really expected to win so could 'offer' whatever, you only had to see how shocked Johnson was immediately after the result imo. I also think you are right in that people turned the £350m into the NHS as a point of complaint who weren't sucked in by it at any point, but just don't accept the result. However it did suck some people in and they complained about it afterwards, once the backtracking started -- imo, they had/have a right to complain.

I think I've spent far too much time talking about slogans from a decided election now, so I will take a leaf from @parklane1 's book and agree to disagree.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

The actual wording was "We send the EU £350 million a week. Let's fund our NHS instead". So it suggested a link, but never said "We'll divert the £350m pw week we currently send the EU to the NHS budget"

The implication is clear though, so I think that's a touch disingenuous.

But not to put too fine a point on it, what about this one?

Was this also not to be taken literally? It was more of a suggestion, yes?

EDIT - I see this has been covered above. (At least I chose a different picture )

 

[scaramanga]

Such a big policy would have needed our agreement so imo it would never have got off the ground.

The EU has previous here.

When they can't get complete agreement they'll just tuck it into something that doesn't. Look at what they did with the Lisbon Treaty.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Remain Core Promises

- An 'immediate and profound economic shock’. The economy will ‘fall into recession, with four quarters of negative growth’.
- 'Unemployment will increase by around 500,000’
- UK tourists will face mobile roaming charges on their holidays

Reality

- Growth has remained positive for every quarter since, with Britain one of the fastest growing economies in the G7
- Employment rate has risen. Unemployment has fallen to 4.7% – the lowest rate since 1975
- People aren't really that shallow

Was this post-vote or post-Brexit?

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

But the markets have priced it in.

To an textent I'm sure, but can they really fully price it in when we don't know what the whole affect will be?

 

[StephenH]

Remain said several times the were no plans in the EU for an EU army or for the EU to take control of all member nations taxes.

Within a week of the result, Juncker was publically quoted as saying the EU could now get on with both, either the remainers were sold a lie by the EU or they were complict in trying to subvert the British rule of law.

What is so wonderful about "The British" rule of law.

 

[scaramanga]

To an textent I'm sure, but can they really fully price it in when we don't know what the whole affect will be?

They'll have priced in what most believe is the most likely outcome, they always do.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

Yeh I agree, and thats why I don't think it made a difference, if you was Brexit you was Brexit

Not really what I was saying, once someone said what you wanted to hear that was what Brexit was going to be and you are Brexit. Not looking that the fella next to you is saying the opposite. A lot of people will be disappointed

 

[Gutter Boy]

I enjoy reading your posts on this thread GB but I am sure you sometimes write things for effect. I am British but I also love being part of a wider Europe, a countervailant force to America, China and the USSR. I feel that being part of Europe has enriched our culture through experiencing the different cuisines, languages and people. At the same time diluting some of the Jingoistic nonsense that we see from many Brits abroad.

It has been good to work with our European partners, without barriers on security, food safety, research and trade. It is not perfect but I am genuinely sad that we have turned our backs on it. I believe it is a decision we will regret ultimately especially as it will entrench our small island mentality.

You just have to look at the major players out side our country who are waxing lyrical about Brexit; namely Putin and Trump, to see the direction we are going.

I like being culturally European - absolutely. I have visited most of its countries, speak two of its languages and love classics/Mediterranean history.

It's the political integration that's the problem. Europe should be economic and cultural co-operation between strong sovereign nations. Basically the European Council, without the Commission or Parliament. Europe went very wrong in 1992 when it started its path towards federalism.

So I meant its the EU as a project that the British have no connection too, not the continent. My real hope is that the EU collapses and we can join in building something much better in its place. Something that's not a theocracy

 

[Gutter Boy]

The last thing the NHS needs is more money, it will go to consultants and pension increases. Not equipment of drugs or extra nurses. The NHS needs to modernise, I say that as someone who is sick and has gone private to get proper care.

You should join the masons. You get to use their network of private hospitals for free (well usual charitable donations) then

 

[StephenH]

I like being culturally European - absolutely. I have visited most of its countries, speak two of its languages and love classics/Mediterranean history.

It's the political integration that's the problem. Europe should be economic and cultural co-operation between strong sovereign nations. Basically the European Council, without the Commission or Parliament. Europe went very wrong in 1992 when it started its path towards federalism.

So I meant its the EU as a project that the British have no connection too, not the continent. My real hope is that the EU collapses and we can join in building something much better in its place. Something that's not a theocracy

Can you ski though?
I don't think the UK has much to fear from the EU.

 

[Robspur12]

I like being culturally European - absolutely. I have visited most of its countries, speak two of its languages and love classics/Mediterranean history.

It's the political integration that's the problem. Europe should be economic and cultural co-operation between strong sovereign nations. Basically the European Council, without the Commission or Parliament. Europe went very wrong in 1992 when it started its path towards federalism.

So I meant its the EU as a project that the British have no connection too, not the continent. My real hope is that the EU collapses and we can join in building something much better in its place. Something that's not a theocracy

It is the EU project that has brought us closer to Europe. We are not going to be close to Europe just because we like them, but because we have shared goals of trade, security and health. As a country we have always been suspicious of the continent feeling more culturally aligned to the Americans GHod forbid. Being part of the EU broke down many barriers made travel easier and exposed us to populations and cultures many would know nothing about otherwise. We wrung out lots of concessions from the EU during our membership. 4 previous Prime ministers from different parties who dealt with the EU every day saw how much our national interests were tied into Europe. Nothing like this level of cooperation between states has ever been achieved in history that has not been achieved through conquest and suppression.

I am not sure what you meant by theocracy. But the EU is far from that. There are Catholic states, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, as wellas secular states. The Union is not religious.

It is clear that your ideology is small state btw,which is a perfectly valid viewpoint. But it is shame that it has given you such an extreme view such that you cannot acknowledge any of the good things that being part of the EU has given us.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I meant the EU has become a religion. It is dogmatic. The people who run the Commission/bureaucracy are quite widely referred to as the priesthood.

 

[scaramanga]

You should join the masons. You get to use their network of private hospitals for free (well usual charitable donations) then

Do you have to do the secret handjob before or after the operation?

 

[tynesidespur]

The last thing the NHS needs is more money, it will go to consultants and pension increases. Not equipment of drugs or extra nurses. The NHS needs to modernise, I say that as someone who is sick and has gone private to get proper care.

On this point, I note a lot of people jumping up & down shouting that the NHS is underfunded. I have very little knowledge on this other than some brief reading but aren't there lots of NHS Charities, trusts & funds which individuals can contribute to?
So, instead of imposing tax rises across the board, those who shout that they would happily pay more in tax to fund the NHS - are they not already free to do so? In fact they could do it tax efficiently through GAYE and target their local hospitals to increase funding. It then becomes a personal choice as to how much you fund/value the NHS.
Personally I would prefer that model than raising taxes across the board.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I added the countries I would consider similar - (didn't pick and chose to make the point)

Not sure if the image is uploaded as I cant see them on this PC but link is:

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator...s=GB-US-DE-FR-AU-CA-JP-XC&start=2014&view=bar

So more money may not be the solution for the NHS but I would like to see how it fairs before changing the structure, lets pay what others are and if it still doesn't work change.