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Politics, politics, politics

parklane1 said:
All good points mate, as for the last one ( in bold) you are 100% right ( imo) some will never admit that all the doom and gloom they spread at the begining of all this was way over the top and still find things to pick up. As you say its the British way.
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Got a new skin for that drum? :D
 
parklane1 said:
I should have explained myself better, when i said for the few i meant for a couple of the countrys rather then the whole lot ( more then the population). I have no idea what post Brexit will mean but in the reverse i fail to see how anyone can say it will be worse. Its all speculation from both sides of the coin at the moment. Unless you/we have a fail safe crystal ball.
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Btw, it's "than", not "then" :)

(No snark intended, just the pedant in me)
 
Didn't agree with all that they represented but I miss these guys...

The last few minutes of Peter Shore's Oxford Union speech 1975


The full speech here:

 
wiziwig said:
A couple of gems from my favourite interviewer, Dave Rubin.


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Should not really post on here anymore, but funny thing about the second video. I can remember a time as recent as ten years ago when people were always saying i may not agree with what you say but i will fight to death for your right to say it.

Those people were just trying to sound good because the people they liked were in power, kind of funny really.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Should not really post on here anymore, but funny thing about the second video. I can remember a time as recent as ten years ago when people were always saying i may not agree with what you say but i will fight to death for your right to say it.

Those people were just trying to sound good because the people they liked were in power, kind of funny really.
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I've always considered myself relaxed about my politics knowing full well I'm but a minion who cannot affect change. I like to think myself open to new ideas, always taking, what I consider the best bits from the right and some from the left.

But increasingly over the years, it's been my experience when debating politics, that the left leaning people when disagreeing will see me as somehow evil and that they have the moral high ground over me.

We are in the year 2017 and I know teachers and people who work in council jobs that wouldn't dare air their true views, that they voted leave , that they think some of what U.S. President Trump says is correct.

The Left don't get it and it's why they will lose badly over the next few years.
 
I don't have much in common with the American liberals/"progressives" and I am left-wing, I certainly don't feel I should be lumped in with them. That doesn't mean that the "Alt-Right" isn't a load of sh1t; even the term itself is, it's the Far Right same as it ever was.

Some people like to cry "freedom of speech!" when what they really want is the freedom to be racist, bigoted qunts. However, when they get called out as racist, bigoted qunts, they start crying and want everyone to shut up.
 
the dza said:
I don't have much in common with the American liberals/"progressives" and I am left-wing, I certainly don't feel I should be lumped in with them. That doesn't mean that the "Alt-Right" isn't a load of sh1t; even the term itself is, it's the Far Right same as it ever was.

Some people like to cry "freedom of speech!" when what they really want is the freedom to be racist, bigoted qunts. However, when they get called out as racist, bigoted qunts, they start crying and want everyone to shut up.
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A lot of the more radical right in Britain - the brains behind Brexit (Davis, Carswell, Hannan etc.) - are libertarians. They are a million miles ideologically from the quasi-fascist right (Trump, alt-right, much of UKIP and the tieless far right). They believe freedom is more important than equality, but are socially liberal and anti-state interference in personal lives.

It's a mistake of the intellectual left to not make that distinction more. They actually have a lot more in common with the libertarians than they do with most of their own working class voters.
 
parklane1 said:
Do you know what mate that is probably one of the best things you have ported onto here. I am not sure what the writers own opinion is but it does show that both sides are capable of bias when it come to this story.
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You agree with this article, but still think people 'Remoaning' is wrong?

Belief in and getting behind something that is wrong is blind faith. At least with Mousa Sissoko we could see some talent. Ability to carry the ball, a physical presence. Brexit doesn't seem to offer anything. Or maybe like Sissoko it does, ability to negotiate our own trade deals (if anyone will listen or give us good terms with 90% less consumers than with the EU). Regardless, brexit will cost the UK a lot more than £30m imo.

I was happy to outline a few pages back what would happen post brexit for me to hold my hand up and say 'I got it wrong' brexit has been a success. What would have to occur for you to do the same: declare you got it wrong? What costs are ok for the uk to incur? Where does the line of brexit success lie for you?

Is it keeping jobs? Having control of laws, even if it means losing things like the minimum wage? Is it keeping the banks and tax revenue?Is it having more money for the NHS, or less people from outside the uk pulling down on public services?

We had all the promises in the campaign, but now seem to have no yard stick to know what the UK is aiming for. What is successful Brexit and what costs are we prepared to take on the chin to achieve the aim?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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Gutter Boy said:
A lot of the more radical right in Britain - the brains behind Brexit (Davis, Carswell, Hannan etc.) - are libertarians. They are a million miles ideologically from the quasi-fascist right (Trump, alt-right, much of UKIP and the tieless far right). They believe freedom is more important than equality, but are socially liberal and anti-state interference in personal lives.

It's a mistake of the intellectual left to not make that distinction more. They actually have a lot more in common with the libertarians than they do with most of their own working class voters.
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These are the same people boosting neo-liberal, trickle down economics which in my view is evil, as is the gob brick fascists who try to use the politics of fear and division. to get their little Quislings, Mussolini's and Francos into power. I have nothing but contempt for both groups.
 
SpurMeUp said:
You agree with this article, but still think people 'Remoaning' is wrong?

Belief in and getting behind something that wrong is blind faith. At least with Mousa Sissoko we could see some talents. Ability to carry the ball, a physical presence. Brexit doesn't seem to offer anything. Or maybe like Sissoko it does, ability to negotiate our own trade deals - if anyone will listen or give us terms with 90% less consumers than with the EU. Regardless brexit will cost the UK a lot more than £30m.

I was happy to outline (few pages back) what would happen post brexit for me to hold my hand up and say 'I got it wrong' brexit has been a success. What would have to occur for you to do the same. What costs are ok for the uk to incur? Where does the line of brexit success lie for you?

Is it keeping jobs? Having control of laws (even if it means losing things like minimum wage)? Is it keeping banks and tax revenues? Is it having more money for the NHS, or less people from outside the uk pulling down on public services?

We had all the promises in the campaign, but now seem to have no yard stick to know what the UK is aiming for. What is successful Brexit and what costs are we prepared to take on the chin to achieve the aim?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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For me, success will be achieved when March 2019 passes, irrespective of what happens in the meantime.

For me success is regaining the power to choose again. To choose capitalism, to choose socialism, to choose the monster raving looney party. The country will be a success or a failure depending on the choices it makes, but after 25 years it will be able to properly make those choices again. In material terms Brexit is neutral. All it means is everything and anything other than the EU.

So in terms of the Sissoko analogy. Staying in the EU is like giving a Sissoko a new 10 year contract, knowing he's pretty brick, but that he might one day (despite being 27yo and showing no signs) become a bit better. Whereas leaving is like flogging him to China and being sat with £20m in our pocket. We might buy a world beater with it, we might buy another dud. But we are able to twist.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
These are the same people boosting neo-liberal, trickle down economics which in my view is evil, as is the gob brick fascists who try to use the politics of fear and division. to get their little Quislings, Mussolini's and Francos into power. I have nothing but contempt for both groups.
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You can actually have classical liberalism/Whiggery (which worked pretty well from the enlightenment to WW1) without neo-liberal economics; although they are usually connected.
 
Gutter Boy said:
For me, success will be achieved when March 2019 passes, irrespective of what happens in the meantime.

For me success is regaining the power to choose again. To choose capitalism, to choose socialism, to choose the monster raving looney party. The country will be a success or a failure depending on the choices it makes, but after 25 years it will be able to properly make those choices again. In material terms Brexit is neutral. All it means is everything and anything other than the EU.

So in terms of the Sissoko analogy. Staying in the EU is like giving a Sissoko a new 10 year contract, knowing he's pretty brick, but that he might one day (despite being 27yo and showing no signs) become a bit better. Whereas leaving is like flogging him to China and being sat with £20m in our pocket. We might buy a world beater with it, we might buy another dud. But we are able to twist.
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The problem is the 'par' outside the EU is probably lower than our current par within it. We live in a world of global trade. Car firms, banks, services they need the EU market. They also need to have regulation parity - these are effectively tariffs too, ways of controlling trade with product regulations. Within the EU we can participate in setting the conditions of trade, outside we just conform and follow, or lose the trade.

Your post suggests that leaving the EU will pop the UK into a free state with no adverse effects at all. That's a leap of faith that ignores the challenges to our economy. Would be a bit like Spurs spending money we don't have on our next signing presuming someone in China will sign Sissoko: reckless, wishful thinking not dealing with reality.

Incidentally think Sissoko can play a part for us. He does have something. Unlike Brexit which offers so little it makes Sissoko look like Messi.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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