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Politics, politics, politics

I think that the UK is not unique but is certainly out of the norm in terms of a lack of work ethic. I've worked in the US and Germany (albeit far less than I have in the UK) and we have a factory in the Czech Republic (or Czechia or whatever it's supposed to be called now). My experience is that few in those countries believe they are owed something in the way people in the UK do. Germany is an excellent example of businesses that have employees who actually care about the success of the business and who are massively more productive than their UK counterparts. It also has such low homeownership that expendable income stays high, along with unions that help to keep wage inflation down. I can't see either of those things happening in the UK any time soon.

I don't see any country operating the way I suggest they should. The US is closer than most, and those who do work tend to be better off than their UK equivalents in my experience. They have even more severe problems with their education system than we do (for entirely different reasons), and so have large numbers of fairly unemployable people too.


We will never agree as we are starting from different points and have different opinions on the goal of a successful economy. However you do tend to make statements of fact that are demonstrably incorrect based on experiences elsewhere.

i.e. Union membership makes you lazy / Lazy people join Unions. There are countries with higher PPP and higher Union membership so perhaps its something else that makes the UK Union members lazy (*I don't subscribe to this opinion).
 
I don't think employers combine in that regard much at all. If they do, then I think the same laws against anti-competitiveness should apply. They shouldn't be able to skew the market they sell in and neither should they be able to skew the market they purchase from.

It is, of course, entirely possible to have value without having what is normally considered a rare skill. Certainly in this country, a strong work ethic combined with an eagerness for the employer to succeed in its aims is enough to stand out from the crowd and to become valuable.

That is not even close to being universally true, I suspect. And for every anecdotal bit of evidence you can produce to support this assertion, I can bring up one from my side of the pond to support the assertion that you can be very hard-working (often to the point of working two jobs at once), loyal and committed...and *still* end up working restaurants or otherwise suffering unstable employment, often at the whim of the employer who doesn't give a damn about these things because they can easily replace you with someone desperate for a position of any sort.


Those may be trigger points, but as with all other laws, the public has to have got to that point in their thinking first. You simply can't pass laws that the majority of the public don't want - that's a fairly important part of democracy!

A good recent example is that of gay marriage, a law that only 10-15 years before it's introduction (I'm counting the civil partnership act as the start) would have been highly controversial, even for a left-leaning government. But we have all seen how, during our lifetimes, the attitudes of the general public have altered in a way that allows such laws to pass with barely a murmur at election time.


Again, not entirely. the Liberal government of 1906 had a very back-and-forth relationship with the unions they co-opted the support of, and this was often down to the blunt fact that the majority of the Liberals' traditional voters and sources of funding often opposed the welfare and workers' protection provisions that they were trying to pass, to say nothing of wider society.

The Liberals recognized that trade unionism and working-class political participation was on a near-unstoppable upward rise, but it had not permeated through the wider voting public at all - certainly, it had not even permeated the Liberal Party, which found itself implacably divided over many of the fundamental elements of the policies they were trying to pass (personified in the rancour over the Trade Disputes Act of 1906, which enshrined peaceful picketing and striking as lawful acts and fundamental rights).

Often, policies can be pushed through without wider society approving of them. Hell, if you believe the Brexiteers, the same thing's been happening for decades as the elites pushed EU integration and Brussels' laws without the consent of the common man.
 
I don't see much of an erosion of rights for workers. Employing people is far more costly now than it has ever been, making people redundant and sacking them (after an initial period) is as difficult as it has ever been. Ever tried sacking a useless employee that also happens to be disabled? That's not a procedure I would wish on anybody.

I think that what has changed more than employees' rights is their expectations. Generation Special Snowflake and their "deferred success" at school, 50% attending university (having the obvious effect of lowering the value of a degree rather than increasing the value of an employee), an over-inflated safety net that causes people to believe they are owed something from life, abolition of learning trades pre-16..... All of this has led to a workforce of people that believe they deserve before they've earned. That's the real danger, and I genuinely don't see how we can fix it any time soon.

Employing people may be costlier now than it has been in the past. But, those people are less likely to be unionized than at any preceding point in the last seventy-odd years, have fewer social welfare outlets to rely on than they did prior to the recession, are only covered by an increasingly overstretched and underfunded NHS and already work in a country with weaker individual and temporary worker protection measures than the OECD average (sometimes drastically - I believe, as of 2015, the OECD's index of worker protections placed the UK second-bottom - on an average indicator scale of 1 to 6, the UK garnered a score of about 1 across the collective, individual and temporary employment protection measures, in comparison to Germany at 2.5, France at 3 and Turkey/Portugal as the leaders with 3.5). Only the United States has fewer relative employment protections - again, going by OECD data. And this is ignoring the dramatic developments in worker abuses at the bottom end of the scale - the Sports Directs, the Hermes' and the other employers increasingly relying on zero-hours contracts and other measures to shaft people only looking for a decent day's work at a decent day's pay. Emotive, if not necessarily completely representative, cases - and cases which could set very real precedents for the future.

And the erosion of rights is very real - the Trade Union Act and its new restrictions on striking is only the most public recent example of this, but there was also the dramatic extension of the time period of employment needed for an unfair dismissal claim against any employer, the restriction of employment tribunal claims by the implementation of fees, the drastic reduction in the number of days required for collective consultation by any employer prior to firing 100 or more employees simultaneously, and a range of other smaller measures packaged into the Tories' various regulatory reform bills over the years. Worse still will come, when the EU's worker protections cease to apply to the UK and will need to be substituted by what the Tories presumably think workers should be entitled to - which it isn't illogical to assume won't be anywhere near as extensive as what the EU thought workers should be entitled to.

As for that whole 'generation snowflake' thing - firstly, again, you're chastising the wrong people for it. People attended university for the wrong reasons, no one's disputing that. But the problem didn't come from the universities - their function was, and is, to pursue knowledge and educate people interested in studying humans as we think ourselves to be, the world as we perceive it to be, and the universe as we believe it to be.

The idea that universities were to become job training centres came from companies too greedy and self-interested to do that sort of job training themselves - they thought they could outsource that job to universities and then reap the benefits later. Again, privatizing profits and socializing costs.

Germany went the opposite direction - their university enrollment rates are actually lower than the Western European average because more than half of all German students choose to join apprenticeship programs that are jointly funded by employers and the government. After four years of on-the-job training (paid for by the employer) and classroom learning (paid for by the government), they are usually guaranteed a job with the company they apprenticed with.

There are considerable downsides to this system - people become too specialized in one narrow avenue of employment that may not have value later on in life, and that specialization often starts as early as 11 or 12 years old (when students are advised to choose between academic or vocational streams based on their aptitude). And people have far fewer choices at various stages in life due to the regimented nature of this system.

But, at its heart lies an idea that the universities are not meant to be conveyer belts for corporate employees as much as they are meant to be bastions of intellectual and experimental pursuits, questioning and leaning. If the companies want employees, they pay up and train them themselves.

You presumably want people to follow the German system and get out of universities and into vocational training - your efforts would be better served telling companies to establish mass training and recruitment programs, because they are the ones who have skimped out on their responsibilities in the UK.

Not the kids, who (as I keep mentioning) are the most intelligent, well-read, broadly educated and capable of any generation, ever - just by dint of going through universities at a rate their forebears couldn't manage. Not the universities, who quite rightly don't want to become employee conveyor belts shorn of any intellectual purpose or tradition. Not the government, which earnestly believed that education was a right and legislated to preserve that right - 'education' here meaning far more than 'being moulded into the ideal employee'.

The companies that shirked their social responsibilities, as too many companies unfortunately do all the damn time, are the ones you should be blaming.
 
Also, it continually baffles me what people expect from this Millennial generation. They were brought up in a world which told them that the great struggles of human society were over - liberal democracy had prevailed, with its emphasis on the value and worth of each and every individual. They were brought up to be kind, to be compassionate, to be respectful, to appreciate the worth of everyone. They were brought up in a Western world which (excepting the Dotcom bubble) experienced near-continuous growth. They were educated in the liberal humanist tradition that underpins the governmental and legislative philosophies of nearly every Western nation. They were taught how to question, think and analyse at the universities that they attended in unprecedented numbers. They were informed that technology and automation assured limitless potential and progress that would revolutionize their working and personal lives. And they were told that society as a whole had a duty of care to them and to all sorts of other things (the environment, human rights, and any number of others) by dint of it being for a common, greater good.

They are the apex of human growth so far - the furthest humans have yet moved from the animalistic instincts that guided our initial tribalism, selfishness and conflictual natures. Shouldn't they be praised for being so aware of social injustices, so ready to question, so determined to stand up to abuses? More than any other generation, they grew up to be what they were taught to be as children - what we were all taught to be.

But no. They come out into the world, and are immediately upbraided for being 'snowflakes', for being lazy, for being unemployable, for being alternately too sensitive to criticism and too ignorant of some supposed realities that the older generations faced. They are criticized, ridiculed and maligned by older generations, which faced different challenges but also had hugely different advantages. They are told that they are too unwilling to start from the rock bottom by folks who (at least to a degree) are the same people who told them an education and skills would save them from that requirement. And they face all this while the Baby Boomers and the oldest generations enjoy social security and benefits that they themselves will likely never experience, the fruits of a more occidental world of ages past that are today withering in the face of unprecedented concentration of wealth in the fewest hands, stark and widening gaps between classes and the death of the social, common ideal.

I don't get what they're expected to be or what sort of antisocial views they are supposed to adopt that will suddenly make them more palatable in the eyes of people who continually berate and lambast them. Maybe they're all supposed to become like the yuppies of the 1980's, all reckless, disgusting individualism to the detriment of everyone and everything else. Or something on those lines, I don't know.
 
corbyn really is blinkered, he's still in the mindset of snapping at the heels of the party oblivious to the fact that he is the party
 
That is not even close to being universally true, I suspect. And for every anecdotal bit of evidence you can produce to support this assertion, I can bring up one from my side of the pond to support the assertion that you can be very hard-working (often to the point of working two jobs at once), loyal and committed...and *still* end up working restaurants or otherwise suffering unstable employment, often at the whim of the employer who doesn't give a damn about these things because they can easily replace you with someone desperate for a position of any sort.
Show me an employer who (all other things being equal) chooses to sack his hardest working employees first and I'll show you a bankruptcy in progress.

Being harder working and more effective than your peers will always put you at the back of any firing line. Nobody is owed job security, you make and earn it yourself.

Again, not entirely. the Liberal government of 1906 had a very back-and-forth relationship with the unions they co-opted the support of, and this was often down to the blunt fact that the majority of the Liberals' traditional voters and sources of funding often opposed the welfare and workers' protection provisions that they were trying to pass, to say nothing of wider society.

The Liberals recognized that trade unionism and working-class political participation was on a near-unstoppable upward rise, but it had not permeated through the wider voting public at all - certainly, it had not even permeated the Liberal Party, which found itself implacably divided over many of the fundamental elements of the policies they were trying to pass (personified in the rancour over the Trade Disputes Act of 1906, which enshrined peaceful picketing and striking as lawful acts and fundamental rights).

Often, policies can be pushed through without wider society approving of them. Hell, if you believe the Brexiteers, the same thing's been happening for decades as the elites pushed EU integration and Brussels' laws without the consent of the common man.
You've found a very rare exception there. Our democratic right to stop laws we don't want was essentially given away without the public understanding it was happening (along with the EU becoming something entirely different to the entity we voted to become a part of). Once they were given away we were powerless to stop them from being put in place.

Hopefully that's no longer the case.
 
Show me an employer who (all other things being equal) chooses to sack his hardest working employees first and I'll show you a bankruptcy in progress.
Bosses can be dingdongs

She had been working there for 24 years so I imagine she was halfway decent - at that level even good workers are easily replaceable.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/17/burge...sandwich-home-given-30000-in-damages-6454132/

I suppose she retrain and become a Brain surgeon or something otherwise this type of thing is their own fault?
 
Employing people may be costlier now than it has been in the past. But, those people are less likely to be unionized than at any preceding point in the last seventy-odd years, have fewer social welfare outlets to rely on than they did prior to the recession, are only covered by an increasingly overstretched and underfunded NHS and already work in a country with weaker individual and temporary worker protection measures than the OECD average (sometimes drastically - I believe, as of 2015, the OECD's index of worker protections placed the UK second-bottom - on an average indicator scale of 1 to 6, the UK garnered a score of about 1 across the collective, individual and temporary employment protection measures, in comparison to Germany at 2.5, France at 3 and Turkey/Portugal as the leaders with 3.5). Only the United States has fewer relative employment protections - again, going by OECD data. And this is ignoring the dramatic developments in worker abuses at the bottom end of the scale - the Sports Directs, the Hermes' and the other employers increasingly relying on zero-hours contracts and other measures to shaft people only looking for a decent day's work at a decent day's pay. Emotive, if not necessarily completely representative, cases - and cases which could set very real precedents for the future.
What do you think the best answer to being offered a contract you don't like is? To my knowledge, slavery is still illegal in the UK and nobody is being forced to work in conditions they don't like.

And the erosion of rights is very real - the Trade Union Act and its new restrictions on striking is only the most public recent example of this, but there was also the dramatic extension of the time period of employment needed for an unfair dismissal claim against any employer, the restriction of employment tribunal claims by the implementation of fees, the drastic reduction in the number of days required for collective consultation by any employer prior to firing 100 or more employees simultaneously, and a range of other smaller measures packaged into the Tories' various regulatory reform bills over the years. Worse still will come, when the EU's worker protections cease to apply to the UK and will need to be substituted by what the Tories presumably think workers should be entitled to - which it isn't illogical to assume won't be anywhere near as extensive as what the EU thought workers should be entitled to.
The extension of the time period for unfair dismissal claims is absolutely vital. It can take time to know if somebody is right for a job or not - certainly more than 12 months at the more strategic end of the employment chain.

It's absolutely vital that employers aren't stuck with unsuitable staff as it's rare they could ever afford to employ two people for one position.

As for that whole 'generation snowflake' thing - firstly, again, you're chastising the wrong people for it. People attended university for the wrong reasons, no one's disputing that. But the problem didn't come from the universities - their function was, and is, to pursue knowledge and educate people interested in studying humans as we think ourselves to be, the world as we perceive it to be, and the universe as we believe it to be.

The idea that universities were to become job training centres came from companies too greedy and self-interested to do that sort of job training themselves - they thought they could outsource that job to universities and then reap the benefits later. Again, privatizing profits and socializing costs.
This is just an opinion, I know, but I don't think it is the place of businesses to prepare potential employees for the job market. As an employer I should be able to count on a university graduate being able to spell check their own CV (experience tells me I can't), to hold a conversation from across a desk with me (again, I can't), to have some basic level of problem solving and logic skills, etc. (again, I can't).

If there is something non-standard about how my company operates or a specialist skill then I expect to have to train people myself (not personally, obviously but at my expense). But if I'm looking for an accountancy or marketing graduate I expect them to be able to perform as an accountant or marketing type out of the box.

Germany went the opposite direction - their university enrollment rates are actually lower than the Western European average because more than half of all German students choose to join apprenticeship programs that are jointly funded by employers and the government. After four years of on-the-job training (paid for by the employer) and classroom learning (paid for by the government), they are usually guaranteed a job with the company they apprenticed with.

There are considerable downsides to this system - people become too specialized in one narrow avenue of employment that may not have value later on in life, and that specialization often starts as early as 11 or 12 years old (when students are advised to choose between academic or vocational cat videos on youtube based on their aptitude). And people have far fewer choices at various stages in life due to the regimented nature of this system.

But, at its heart lies an idea that the universities are not meant to be conveyer belts for corporate employees as much as they are meant to be bastions of intellectual and experimental pursuits, questioning and leaning. If the companies want employees, they pay up and train them themselves.

You presumably want people to follow the German system and get out of universities and into vocational training - your efforts would be better served telling companies to establish mass training and recruitment programs, because they are the ones who have skimped out on their responsibilities in the UK.
Again, I think employers have the right to expect university leavers to be employable. Schools, colleges and universities are places of learning - that's their intent and sole reason for existence. Workplaces are for working - the clue is in the name.

The German system is closer to the system I'd prefer. I think I've mentioned on here before about a school where my wife used to teach - it is in a particularly rough area where many of the kids have never seen their parents work. Obesity is off the scale, university attendance is next to zero, standard sink estate expectations, etc.

That school got fed up of zoo keeping the less academic kids and started taking them out of lessons and training them as electricians, builders, etc. Taught them how to stay safe on building sites, how to write an invoice as a self-employed person, etc. Not only did the kids leaving that school have better prospects from that point, the results in the other classes improved too as teachers were able to focus on those more suited to academic achievement.

There's clearly a problem in how to select for grammar schools, and I don't know what the answer is to getting that right. What I am sure of is that it's our best chance of getting kids the most appropriate education we can.


Not the kids, who (as I keep mentioning) are the most intelligent, well-read, broadly educated and capable of any generation, ever - just by dint of going through universities at a rate their forebears couldn't manage. Not the universities, who quite rightly don't want to become employee conveyor belts shorn of any intellectual purpose or tradition. Not the government, which earnestly believed that education was a right and legislated to preserve that right - 'education' here meaning far more than 'being moulded into the ideal employee'.

The companies that shirked their social responsibilities, as too many companies unfortunately do all the damn time, are the ones you should be blaming.
Maybe that's the case at the top universities. I'm not running IBM or Google. Neither am I running a big 4 (is it 5 now?) accountancy firm.

At the end of the market where I have to shop (ex polys on the whole) kids can barely spell critical thinking, let alone enact it. They are entirely void of any logic skill or problem solving ability and not suitable for employment in the roles they are supposedly trained for.
 
Bosses can be ding dongs

She had been working there for 24 years so I imagine she was halfway decent - at that level even good workers are easily replaceable.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/17/burge...sandwich-home-given-30000-in-damages-6454132/
So can a lot of employees. Unfortunately, that's often not enough to get rid of them.

Do you think that the person who sacked her was entirely happy with her other than over this episode? That would be incredibly strange behaviour if so.

I suppose she retrain and become a Brain surgeon or something otherwise this type of thing is their own fault?
If I'm reading the article correctly she's been working in Vancouver for 24 years and still has poor English skills. That doesn't sound like a particularly employable person to me.
 
corbyn really is blinkered, he's still in the mindset of snapping at the heels of the party oblivious to the fact that he is the party
According to YouGov, not one of the potential candidates has a positive approval rating. Best is Dan Jarvis at -1.
 
Also, it continually baffles me what people expect from this Millennial generation. They were brought up in a world which told them that the great struggles of human society were over - liberal democracy had prevailed, with its emphasis on the value and worth of each and every individual. They were brought up to be kind, to be compassionate, to be respectful, to appreciate the worth of everyone. They were brought up in a Western world which (excepting the Dotcom bubble) experienced near-continuous growth. They were educated in the liberal humanist tradition that underpins the governmental and legislative philosophies of nearly every Western nation. They were taught how to question, think and analyse at the universities that they attended in unprecedented numbers. They were informed that technology and automation assured limitless potential and progress that would revolutionize their working and personal lives. And they were told that society as a whole had a duty of care to them and to all sorts of other things (the environment, human rights, and any number of others) by dint of it being for a common, greater good.

They are the apex of human growth so far - the furthest humans have yet moved from the animalistic instincts that guided our initial tribalism, selfishness and conflictual natures. Shouldn't they be praised for being so aware of social injustices, so ready to question, so determined to stand up to abuses? More than any other generation, they grew up to be what they were taught to be as children - what we were all taught to be.
I don't refer to them as Generation Snowflake because they love polar bears or drive bricky hybrids, I do so because they (in my experience and that of many IoD members) feel they deserve before they've earned. They feel that a living is owed to them rather than being there for the taking. There's a very clear dislike of getting one's hands dirty (both literally and figuratively), and whilst it's not their fault, they've been brought up with undeservedly high expectations of remuneration and advancement.

It's a very difficult thing to put into words but the closest I can get is a lack of grit, a toughness that the workplace requires and rewards that they are not willing or able to bring about.

But no. They come out into the world, and are immediately upbraided for being 'snowflakes', for being lazy, for being unemployable, for being alternately too sensitive to criticism and too ignorant of some supposed realities that the older generations faced. They are criticized, ridiculed and maligned by older generations, which faced different challenges but also had hugely different advantages. They are told that they are too unwilling to start from the rock bottom by folks who (at least to a degree) are the same people who told them an education and skills would save them from that requirement. And they face all this while the Baby Boomers and the oldest generations enjoy social security and benefits that they themselves will likely never experience, the fruits of a more occidental world of ages past that are today withering in the face of unprecedented concentration of wealth in the fewest hands, stark and widening gaps between classes and the death of the social, common ideal.
If they've been told that more education would be a shortcut to success then those telling them that were wrong. More/better education will just separate one candidate from the next. It's a minimum requirement that gets them through the door.

I don't get what they're expected to be or what sort of antisocial views they are supposed to adopt that will suddenly make them more palatable in the eyes of people who continually berate and lambast them. Maybe they're all supposed to become like the yuppies of the 1980's, all reckless, disgusting individualism to the detriment of everyone and everything else. Or something on those lines, I don't know.
There's nothing wrong with the yuppies of the 80s - they helped drag this country out of the mire.

Despite the source, this is a really good article on why I don't trust them:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/22/when-did-britain-stop-being-a-nation-of-hedonists

You can't be ready to be a fully rounded grown up until you've properly enjoyed being young.
 
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I don't refer to them as Generation Snowflake because they love polar bears or drive bricky hybrids, I do so because they (in my experience and that of many IoD members) feel they deserve before they've earned. They feel that a living is owed to them rather than being there for the taking. There's a very clear dislike of getting one's hands dirty (both literally and figuratively), and whilst it's not their fault, they've been brought up with undeservedly high expectations of remuneration and advancement.

It's a very difficult thing to put into words but the closest I can get is a lack of grit, a toughness that the workplace requires and rewards that they are not willing or able to bring about.


If they've been told that more education would be a shortcut to success then those telling them that were wrong. More/better education will just separate one candidate from the next. It's a minimum requirement that gets them through the door.


There's nothing wrong with the yuppies of the 80s - they helped drag this country out of the mire.

Despite the source, this is a really good article on why I don't trust them:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/22/when-did-britain-stop-being-a-nation-of-hedonists

You can't be ready to be a grown up until you've properly enjoyed being young.

this is my experience too

yep
 
So can a lot of employees. Unfortunately, that's often not enough to get rid of them.

Do you think that the person who sacked her was entirely happy with her other than over this episode? That would be incredibly strange behaviour if so.

If I'm reading the article correctly she's been working in Vancouver for 24 years and still has poor English skills. That doesn't sound like a particularly employable person to me.

She was fired after 24 years of working there, she must have been halfway decent / acceptable for this particular job.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...m-wage-ian-wright-investigation-a7149971.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...take-toilet-breaks-panic-attack-a7337441.html

Some people are incapable of "bettering themselves" and we would still need people to work the low level jobs they vacate if they were to do so. If you think this is right and an example of a good employment market I will leave this here.
 
She was fired after 24 years of working there, she must have been halfway decent / acceptable for this particular job.
Maybe she was a complete dingdong and this was the first sackable offence they could pin on her?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...m-wage-ian-wright-investigation-a7149971.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...take-toilet-breaks-panic-attack-a7337441.html

Some people are incapable of "bettering themselves" and we would still need people to work the low level jobs they vacate if they were to do so. If you think this is right and an example of a good employment market I will leave this here.
Yet huge numbers of people still choose to work under these conditions. Slavery was abolished a long time ago, but apparently these employees are forced to work under those conditions?
 
Maybe she was a complete ding dong and this was the first sackable offence they could pin on her?


In 24 years? she must have been a good ding dong

Yet huge numbers of people still choose to work under these conditions. Slavery was abolished a long time ago, but apparently these employees are forced to work under those conditions?

Some people are incapable of "bettering themselves" and we would still need people to work the low level jobs they vacate if they were to do so. If you think this is right and an example of a good employment market I will leave this here.
 
Anyone noticed how the fascists have been coming out of the wood work and from under their rocks of late? I wonder what has boosted the self belief of these maggots?

The opposite really, there seems much more noise from the far left than I can remember.
 
The opposite really, there seems much more noise from the far left than I can remember.

Really, National Front in France, Trump loving Christian Fundies in US, Pauline Hanson's One Nation in Australia, extremist Nationalist (read fascist parties in Sweden.) Don't see anything of the far left in those countries.
 
Really, National Front in France, Trump loving Christian Fundies in US, Pauline Hanson's One Nation in Australia, extremist Nationalist (read fascist parties in Sweden.) Don't see anything of the far left in those countries.
Both sides are making more noise - as always the left more so. But the right are gaining in elections.
 
Both sides are making more noise - as always the left more so. But the right are gaining in elections.

The far left was what the above poster stated. I haven't seen ANYTHING from them, pretty much anywhere, but look at the examples I've just provided and I didn't even have to lump UKIP in amongst them.
 
The far left was what the above poster stated. I haven't seen ANYTHING from them, pretty much anywhere, but look at the examples I've just provided and I didn't even have to lump UKIP in amongst them.
Corbyn's lot have been noisier than their opinions deserve.

Noise is all that political belief has left though - they're a bark that no longer has a bite.

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