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Politics, politics, politics

spitshine said:
Not sure if this has already been done but it will be interesting if there was a poll to see how people voted in relation to their income and social status.

I work in finance and most of the colleagues know voted to remain except two.
Those two colleagues live in poor areas and had a very working class upbringing. i.e brought up in council houses, basic education and do basic level jobs at the bank. Is their a direct correlation between the two and is this representative of the demographic as a whole.

I didn't vote in the referendum simply because my summer party was on the same day so got back too late...and didn't bother going before work
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Geography was more important. Rich home counties/middle-England was as much leave as the industrial north. It was only London, Scotland and Bristol that were essentially remain (with London and Scotland combined making up 1/3 of the UK population)
 
milo said:
Measures like cutting the numbers of foreign students is something that she has always wanted to do despite it not having public support and being bad for the economy.
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3/4 of foreign students are non-EU. Chinese, American, Indian and Nigerian mainly. They come in by the tier 4 visa scheme and won't be affected by any of this. The other 1/4 will in future have to apply through this route, but that doesn't necessarily mean their number will decline, or at least that non-EU applicants won't take up the extra capacity (as Europeans make up only 7% of the world's population, we aren't recruiting purely on merit).

Although I agree that May does have a bizarre vendetta against international students, and that's not a good thing.
 
milo said:
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Clearly put. Wasn't this clear 6 months ago? Was all very obvious. I suppose you could push back: US with Trump allied on Brexit is an opportunity (but are they going to do us any trade favors or just sit round the table quickly rather than the normal 2 year stall?).

One thing that might be interesting for Milo and others, myself, is to outline what would happen for us to say I called it wrong, Brexit is working! What would we see or would happen successfully in the UK to reach that positive, and admittance of being wrong?

Would it be a trade deal with the EU, another with the US, banks and car firms stable and happy in the UK? What is Brexit success for Remain in short?
 
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Britain's the 4th biggest economy in the world. We are a huge market for all the plastic crap China likes to export. We're hardly South Sudan going into the big scary world for the first time.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Britain's the 4th biggest economy in the world. We are a huge market for all the plastic crap China likes to export. We're hardly South Sudan going into the big scary world for the first time.
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5th (or 9th measured by purchasing power parity). Regardless of Brexit we'll slip down the table in the next decade.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Clearly put. Wasn't this clear 6 months ago? Was all very obvious. I suppose you could push back: US with Trump allied on Brexit is an opportunity (but are they going to do us any trade favors or just sit round the table quickly rather than the normal 2 year stall?).

One thing that might be interesting for Milo and others, myself, is to outline what would happen for us to say I called it wrong, Brexit is working! What would we see or would happen successfully in the UK to reach that positive, admittance of being wrong?

Would it be a trade deal with the EU, another with the US, banks and car firms stable and happy in the UK? What is Brexit success for Remain in short?
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I'll be delighted to be proved wrong. I really hope that we do become (I would have said continued to be before June) a tolerant, global trading nation and that our exit from the EU is smooth. I cannot foresee how this can happen though.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Clearly put. Wasn't this clear 6 months ago? Was all very obvious. I suppose you could push back: US with Trump allied on Brexit is an opportunity (but are they going to do us any trade favors or just sit round the table quickly rather than the normal 2 year stall?).

One thing that might be interesting for Milo and others, myself, is to outline what would happen for us to say I called it wrong, Brexit is working! What would we see or would happen successfully in the UK to reach that positive, admittance of being wrong?

Would it be a trade deal with the EU, another with the US, banks and car firms stable and happy in the UK? What is Brexit success for Remain in short?
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in the short term, increased NHS funding and a sensible solution to immigration that doesn't hurt the economy or our skills shortage

longer term, well everything is supposed to be better right?
 
galeforce said:
in the short term, increased NHS funding and a sensible solution to immigration that doesn't hurt the economy or our skills shortage

longer term, well everything is supposed to be better right?
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It's hardly fair to hold them to their promises.
 
galeforce said:
in the short term, increased NHS funding and a sensible solution to immigration that doesn't hurt the economy or our skills shortage

longer term, well everything is supposed to be better right?
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Sounds like the UKIP manifesto :)

For me Brexit would be a success if we still have strong connections with Europe. Can travel and trade with them freely. I like to be connected to what are the most advanced, plural cultures in the world. Is there anywhere else with the diversity, depth of culture and history as Europe? I'd love to live in France or Portugal and freely travel back the UK.

Brexit will be a success if the economy doesn't suffer, if we can somehow have single market free-ish trade as well as trade more easily with other countries (though why we can not now while in the EU is a mystery that no Leave backer can answer adequately). I don't give too hoots about EU laws or 'Sovrignity'. What difference does it make to me if the right pragmatic laws are passed by clams here in London or a few hundred miles away in Brussels? At least Brussels is pragmatic, rather than May's reactionary government that is trying to second guess the people, rather than lead. It's-all-about-immigration-May.

But I digress. If we can trade freely and remain strongly connected with the most culturally advanced countries in the world - EU nations - as well as access the growing Asian countries then I will hold my hands up and admit I was wrong. Brexit was a success.

Even now, at this juncture, no one but no one knows what Brexit will look like fully. So none of us can be 100% sure of the rights or wrongs of it. But we can outline what would make it a success or failure, which is fascinating. Its so very hard to put your deep bias to one side tho :)

Where would Leave folks draw the line? What would make you renounce your opinion on Leaving, what would have to occur for you to hold your hands up and say remaining part of the EU was a better option?
 
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SpurMeUp said:
I don't give too hoots about EU laws or 'Sovrignity'. What difference does it make to me if the right pragmatic laws are passed by clams here in London or a few hundred miles away in Brussels?
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You can't remove the law givers in Brussells - there's no accountability. In the UK we have elected dictatorships for 5 years, but anyone that balls-up gets oblitorated at the next election and potentially wont get a sniff of power for another 10-15 years. The Brussells technocrats are deliberately protected from democracy so the project can't be derailed by annoying things like people's choice.

Always remember Tony Benn's 5 rules about your leaders:

What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you use it?
To whom are you accountable?
How do we get rid of you?

The EU fails the democracy test on at least the last 4
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Where would Leave folks draw the line? What would make you renounce your opinion on Leaving, what would have to occur for you to hold your hands up and say remaining part of the EU was a better option?
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I don't think you can ever regret regaining the power of choice.

I believe in liberalism over utilitarianism. The freedom to choose over ignorant bliss. The red pill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill)

The mistakes and successes will come in what we do next. We could become a driven economic powerhouse like Korea/Signapore, or retreat a bit and become a content Scandinavian type place, or lots of other things between. But now we can decide our own fate.
 
Gutter Boy said:
You can't remove the law givers in Brussells - there's no accountability. In the UK we have elected dictatorships for 5 years, but anyone that balls-up gets oblitorated at the next election and potentially wont get a sniff of power for another 10-15 years. The Brussells technocrats are deliberately protected from democracy so the project can't be rerailed by annoying things like people's choice.

Always remember Tony Benn's 5 rules about your leaders:

What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you use it?
To whom are you accountable?
How do we get rid of you?

The EU fails the democracy test on at least the last 4
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Democracy is a bad system. But the least bad system anyone has come up with. Chruchill.

Thing is the EU is accountable. Its not like Putin or North Korea! There are member states to report to, MEP elections, each member country has representatives from their government, and the people working there are made up of the highly talented people from the UK and other countries. In short, the power comes from the member countries. Any big laws/ treaties can be vetoed by member states! EU government interests are also less aligned to corporate entities than in the US or UK where party funding and lobbying are rife. The power the EU has is highly limited too! Only operating on peoples rights and trade related areas. Big deal! It doesn't affect me greatly. And saves the U.K. government doing all the leg work.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
I don't think you can ever regret regaining the power of choice.

I believe in liberalism over utilitarianism. The freedom to choose over ignorant bliss. The red pill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill)

The mistakes and successes will come in what we do next. We could become a driven economic powerhouse like Korea/Signapore, or retreat a bit and become a content Scandinavian type place, or lots of other things between. But now we can decide our own fate.
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What exactly holds us back now in your opinion? Why can't we be a powerhouse now? You stated on the last page we have the 4th largest economy (sic) in the world.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Britain's the 4th biggest economy in the world. We are a huge market for all the plastic crap China likes to export. We're hardly South Sudan going into the big scary world for the first time.
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4th before the Britexit bit now 6th is being reported.
 
DTA said:
4th before the Britexit bit now 6th is being reported.
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We are both wrong. It's 5th and long been 5th.


GDP in Millions (IMF, 2016)

1) US 18,561,930
2) China 11,391,619
3) Japan 4,730,300
4) Germany 3,494,900
5) United Kingdom 2,649,890
6) France 2,488,280
7) India 2,250,990
8) Italy 1,852,500
9) Brazil 1,769,600
10) Canada 1,532,340
 
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DTA said:
Yeah I think that was case pre Britexit vote:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/foreig...tain-as-the-worlds-sixth-largest-economy/amp/
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I think that was speculation, but the actual 2016 figures showed recently that Britain (and France) was still quite a way ahead of India

Of course India will overtake us in the coming years, but that's just the industrialisation of the (former) third world. Japan is dropping relative to the rest because it's no longer pursuing growth so aggressively, and France doesn't grow as quickly as the UK because its more socialist.
 
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