Politics, politics, politics

[Danishfurniturelover]

Reading Junckers comments today and I found them slightly chilling, he comes across as a little bit of a racist who seems to think Europeans have more importance in the world then other countries outside of Europe. I find his views kind of backward and dare I say it little europeaner.

"at the start of the last century, Europeans represented around 20 per cent of humankind, this had fallen to between 5 and 7 per cent at the start of this century and would further shrink to 4 per cent by the end of it.

'So those who do think the time has come to deconstruct, to put Europe in pieces, to subdivide us in national divisions, are totally wrong,' Mr Juncker said.

'We won't exist as single nations without the European Union.'

Honestly think if the EU wants to fight back against the rising dislike of the project then the first thing they need to do is get rid of the old guard who symbolize what so many of us dislike.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

As for Brexit, two of my nearest local MP's Kyle(Labour, Hove) Lucas(green, Brighton) voted against brexit this week and frankly we all know that no matter what deal the government present to the house the are some no matter what the deal is, have already decided to vote against it.

Brexit is over, I am a little sad about the fact that we had a chance to be a progressive forward thinking nation and jump ahead of the curve and leave a failing organisation but I wont let it anger me, life is more important then politics and I am right to distrust the bastards.

 

[r-u-s-x01]

As for Brexit, two of my nearest local MP's Kyle(Labour, Hove) Lucas(green, Brighton) voted against brexit this week and frankly we all know that no matter what deal the government present to the house the are some no matter what the deal is, have already decided to vote against it.

Brexit is over, I am a little sad about the fact that we had a chance to be a progressive forward thinking nation and jump ahead of the curve and leave a failing organisation but I wont let it anger me, life is more important then politics and I am right to distrust the bastards.

Was there a vote on Brexit this week? And it lost, must have missed that one.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think with debating politics online, it's always good to know a little with whom you're debating. You've told me that you're of African origin (something I already knew by the way), therefore I'm more than happy to let you know that I'm first generation born in Britain, to Greek-Cypriots.

Regarding your thoughts on the plans on a global scale, not sure what you mean but I'm genuinely interested, just please don't tell me that the Middle East with it's intake of Asian workers on temporary work permits, is the same thing as people from other continents coming to the Western Hemisphere to live permanently!

It's all politics in this thread so I'm sure that here is okay, a thread where we can air our concerns regarding one world government and all that jizz.

Ok i'll bite then. I'm from a similar 'first generation' immigrant background but was actually born in Nigeria but came here with my mother to join my father when he was here studying. I was aged 9 months and their plans were to both study and move back but things changed in Nigeria (much for the worst generally due to military dictatorship AND poor/corrupt management of a then thriving Economy due in part to the selfish the devaluing of the Naira) and so here i am.

Firstly, i then take it personally when you mention 'people coming to the Western Hemisphere to live permanently' as you prove my point re my comments of what goes on globally: you label immigrants from other continents differently to, say, Greek Cypriots. This is as i always expect: no matter how many years those of 'non-white' faces integrate here (or in other 'White countries'), things for them will never be the same as for those from countries whose skins are 'fairer' or 'white'. Over time they will almost always integrate to be seen as 'White' or 'British.' Hence even though you are yourself from an immigrant background you differentiate yourself from immigrants from 'other continents' (i take you saying this as code for 'non-white').' Another example: those first/second generation people of say, Irish, Polish or Greek descent not being asked as many times "where ae you from originally" compared to those with brown faces, like those similarly first/second generation with African and Asian roots. So it is with this view that i say your picture if anything describes things in the opposite way of how things really work.

Secondly, can i ask you in light of your comments about people coming from other continents to live permanently "in the Western Hemisphere", what do you think of people from European countries going to live permanently in the Americas and Australasia?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

@glorygloryeze I can not speak for others but when I am with black people in London and I grew up in Wood Green I do not think to ask where they came from or the grandfathers were from. I go more on peoples accent, if you were here since a toddler you would speak in an English accent and therefore I would consider you English/British whether you wanted to be considered that or not.

Maybe the is still racism out there, but I honestly think amongst the lower classes who grow up with people or different backgrounds the is less of the casual racism thing. Rightly or wrongly for me it is all in the accent. Of course the are people who are British been here 20 years but because they came as adults they still have an accent, they would still be British for me, but out of curiosity I might ask where they were from originally.

In politics we have tottenham MP vote against article 50 so clearly a bit of a cnut. But the are many good ethnic MP's out there including the highly impressive Patel for the torries, I think in years to come we will have more blacks and asians in Parliament.

As for the level of immigration, my main bug bear is where everyone is going to live, the roads around my way of choker blocked most days, the south is full. Frankly I think England is full, I do not mind immigration all the immigrants I know are nice hard working people, we should be able to stop criminals from coming in and once we have lowered the benefit claimants from the indigenous population then immigrants are needed. I would also add the ones I have employed have shown up most of the local workforce(some brits do work hard in low skilled jobs but they are few and far between).

 

[glorygloryeze]

So talk of "EU Citizenship" and Juncker himself saying Europe "wont exist as single nations without the European Union" (see here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEX-16-4341_en.htm)....anyone still doubt that the EU and it's leaders see the EU as the United States of Europe aka a Superstate?

 

[glorygloryeze]

@glorygloryeze I can not speak for others but when I am with black people in London and I grew up in Wood Green I do not think to ask where they came from or the grandfathers were from. I go more on peoples accent, if you were here since a toddler you would speak in an English accent and therefore I would consider you English/British whether you wanted to be considered that or not.

Maybe the is still racism out there, but I honestly think amongst the lower classes who grow up with people or different backgrounds the is less of the casual racism thing. Rightly or wrongly for me it is all in the accent. Of course the are people who are British been here 20 years but because they came as adults they still have an accent, they would still be British for me, but out of curiosity I might ask where they were from originally.

In politics we have tottenham MP vote against article 50 so clearly a bit of a cnut. But the are many good ethnic MP's out there including the highly impressive Patel for the torries, I think in years to come we will have more blacks and asians in Parliament.

As for the level of immigration, my main bug bear is where everyone is going to live, the roads around my way of choker blocked most days, the south is full. Frankly I think England is full, I do not mind immigration all the immigrants I know are nice hard working people, we should be able to stop criminals from coming in and once we have lowered the benefit claimants from the indigenous population then immigrants are needed. I would also add the ones I have employed have shown up most of the local workforce(some brits do work hard in low skilled jobs but they are few and far between).

I would agree with a lot of this, particularly on a local level. It's the broader international perspective that wiziwig started which I want to hear his responses to.
(I'm not trying to separate the local/national discussions from international, I know one links to the other, but as I say I want to hear more specifically about the international points from wiziwg first...)

 

[milo]

Reading Junckers comments today and I found them slightly chilling, he comes across as a little bit of a racist who seems to think Europeans have more importance in the world then other countries outside of Europe. I find his views kind of backward and dare I say it little europeaner.

"at the start of the last century, Europeans represented around 20 per cent of humankind, this had fallen to between 5 and 7 per cent at the start of this century and would further shrink to 4 per cent by the end of it.

'So those who do think the time has come to deconstruct, to put Europe in pieces, to subdivide us in national divisions, are totally wrong,' Mr Juncker said.

'We won't exist as single nations without the European Union.'

Honestly think if the EU wants to fight back against the rising dislike of the project then the first thing they need to do is get rid of the old guard who symbolize what so many of us dislike.

I haven't seen that, do you have a link to those quotes?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I haven't seen that, do you have a link to those quotes?

I think they are here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEX-16-4341_en.htm and http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-future-juncker-idUSKBN13Y1MW?il=0

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

is on the telegraph website, I have over gone my usage for the month so cant get back on

frankly juncker is one of the major problems with the EU, if the EU was lead by national governments and the EU were just civil servants doing what they were told then the would not be the disconnect around europe with the EU that the is, Juncker can not stop coming out saying he wants a european super stat to combat the rest of the world and the is something about the way he says it make me feel he is as extreme as someone like farage if not more so

 

[milo]

I think they are here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEX-16-4341_en.htm and http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-future-juncker-idUSKBN13Y1MW?il=0

Thanks.

I think that you have misinterpreted what he has said. I read it as a speech about European economic share of the world market. The stuff about the size of European population in the Reuters piece were not quotes. I think that this was just comparing population size to commerce size. I didn't see anything there about a European super-state.

 

[milo]

is on the telegraph website, I have over gone my usage for the month so cant get back on

frankly juncker is one of the major problems with the EU, if the EU was lead by national governments and the EU were just civil servants doing what they were told then the would not be the disconnect around europe with the EU that the is, Juncker can not stop coming out saying he wants a european super stat to combat the rest of the world and the is something about the way he says it make me feel he is as extreme as someone like farage if not more so

Juncker is exactly that. He is the president of the European Commission and is chosen by the European Council (member governments).

Our problem is that Cameron completely fudged up his opposition to Juncker's appointment and tinkled off a load of natural allies in the process. Much like when he pulled the Tories out of the European People's Party.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I imagine we share similar opinions on Cameron, now on the lecture circuit and making a fortune no doubt.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Thanks.

I think that you have misinterpreted what he has said. I read it as a speech about European economic share of the world market. The stuff about the size of European population in the Reuters piece were not quotes. I think that this was just comparing population size to commerce size. I didn't see anything there about a European super-state.

Really?

"So those who do think the time has come to deconstruct, to put Europe in pieces, to subdivide us in national divisions, are totally wrong. We won't exist as single nations without the European Union," Juncker said.

"Europe in pieces", "subdivide us in national divisions" ....if that isn't talking as though Europe isn't already being thought of as a "whole country"/"superstate" (instead of as it is, a continent which is made up of national states and national divisions) then I don't know what else to say..

 

[milo]

Really?

"So those who do think the time has come to deconstruct, to put Europe in pieces, to subdivide us in national divisions, are totally wrong. We won't exist as single nations without the European Union," Juncker said.

"Europe in pieces", "subdivide us in national divisions" ....if that isn't talking as though Europe isn't already being thought of as a "whole country"/"superstate" (instead of as it is, a continent which is made up of national states and national divisions) then I don't know what else to say..

He's talking about European cooperation. The key word in this sentence is without not won't

"We won't exist as single nations without the European Union" and the same goes when he is talking about divisions.

Where did you find out about that speech?

 

[glorygloryeze]

He's talking about European cooperation. The key word in this sentence is without not won't

"We won't exist as single nations without the European Union" and the same goes when he is talking about divisions.

Where did you find out about that speech?

Yes, he was talking about European Cooperation: European Cooperation via the nation states coming together through “more unity” i.e. under one nation, the European Superstate (hence his comments effectively saying that any non-cooperation amongst European countries = subdividing into “national divisions”; he doesn’t believe in the individual nations existing as they have done in the past).

Individual nations can and do exist even without the cooperation that you and him speak of: e.g. does Russia not existing anymore? If article 50 is triggered does the UK (or even just England) cease to exist?

I only searched for the speech online after @Danishfurniturelover first mentioned it.

Also, what of the concept of “EU Citizenship”: doesn’t this concept only really work in a world where the EU is a single nation state entity (i.e. a Superstate)?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

He's talking about European cooperation. The key word in this sentence is without not won't

"We won't exist as single nations without the European Union" and the same goes when he is talking about divisions.

Where did you find out about that speech?

what does it matter where he found out about the speech?

I find that the Guardian, Indy and FT are deliberately now not reporting some stories and quotes that make the EU look bad, I feel sorry for its readership because unless they get their news from lots of different sources they are only get one very unbalanced news.

Unless Juncker comes out and denies the comments and says someone falsefied his quotes we have to accept them.

 

[milo]

Yes, he was talking about European Cooperation: European Cooperation via the nation states coming together through “more unity” i.e. under one nation, the European Superstate (hence his comments effectively saying that any non-cooperation amongst European countries = subdividing into “national divisions”; he doesn’t believe in the individual nations existing as they have done in the past).

Individual nations can and do exist even without the cooperation that you and him speak of: e.g. does Russia not existing anymore? If article 50 is triggered does the UK (or even just England) cease to exist?

I only searched for the speech online after @Sexagenarianlover first mentioned it.

Also, what of the concept of “EU Citizenship”: doesn’t this concept only really work in a world where the EU is a single nation state entity (i.e. a Superstate)?

I think that you are finding what you are looking for, rather than taking the speech at face value. Whether we are in the EU or out, we are still going to need to cooperate more with other countries, that is the nature of the modern world. International cooperation does not diminish national states.

 

[milo]

what does it matter where he found out about the speech?

I find that the Guardian, Indy and FT are deliberately now not reporting some stories and quotes that make the EU look bad, I feel sorry for its readership because unless they get their news from lots of different sources they are only get one very unbalanced news.

Unless Juncker comes out and denies the comments and says someone falsefied his quotes we have to accept them.

The same is true of all news sources. It is sensible to try and read a wide variety of news sources to try and remedy this.

What is there for Junker to deny? He made a speech about European countries working together. That is kind of what the EU is meant to be about.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think that you are finding what you are looking for, rather than taking the speech at face value. Whether we are in the EU or out, we are still going to need to cooperate more with other countries, that is the nature of the modern world. International cooperation does not diminish national states.

Not really, just reporting what he said in his speech AND the actions of the organisation he is a leader for (not to mention several others who speak openly about their plans/desires for Political Union in the EU).

As i have said several times cooperation can exist both within or outside the EU, but Juncker himself believes that cooperation amongst European countries cannot happen outside the EU, plus he himself doesn't believe in "national divisions" within the EU. It's this binary stance (i.e. that European Countries can only cooperate if they are part of the behemoth that is the EU) that leads many people to, on balance, reject the EU.

International cooperation in itself does not diminish nation states, but you still haven't answered my question on the concept of "EU Citizenship": do you agree that the concept of "EU Citizenship" can only exist within an EU "nation-state/Superstate" ? When has any "Citizenship" been granted in a geographical area that is NOT a nation-state?