• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Politics, politics, politics

parklane1 said:
I have no idea mate, the only connection i would compere it to is the " WE ARE DOOMED I TELL THEE" phalanx.
Click to expand...

The problem with this analysis is that most of the forecasts were coming from independent organisations. We've seen again this week that the Brexstremists attack organisations, even ones they've previously praised, when they deliver a message that they don't want to hear. If we are going to get through this with the best outcome that we can get, people are going to have to be prepared to listen to some hard truths at some stage and that applies to both sides of the debate.
 
milo said:
The problem with this analysis is that most of the forecasts were coming from independent organisations. We've seen again this week that the Brexstremists attack organisations, even ones they've previously praised, when they deliver a message that they don't want to hear. If we are going to get through this with the best outcome that we can get, people are going to have to be prepared to listen to some hard truths at some stage and that applies to both sides of the debate.
Click to expand...

I do agree (you may be surprised to hear), but as i said earlier the amount of hot air from the majority of teletext posts is nothing but bluster, and that includes both sides and especially the so called experts, blog writers and those who have face to save.
 
It's very good for the UK that Fillon has just beated Juppe in the Republican leadership contest (and is hence a shoe-in as next French president)

Fillon is a economic liberal and a Eurospectic, whereas Juppe is an EU ideologue.
 
Gutter Boy said:
It's very good for the UK that Fillon has just beated Juppe in the Republican leadership contest (and is hence a shoe-in as next French president)

Fillon is a economic liberal and a Eurospectic, whereas Juppe is an EU ideologue.
Click to expand...
It is only good for the brexiteers feelings of schadenfreunde. If each country breaks up, goes it alone and in particular in the case of France lurches far right, years of collaboration on matters such as trade, security, scientific research will be destroyed. I can only see a less secure, less peaceful and nastier Europe as a result. This was what it was like for centuries after all.
 
Robspur12 said:
It is only good for the brexiteers feelings of schadenfreunde. If each country breaks up, goes it alone and in particular in the case of France lurches far right, years of collaboration on matters such as trade, security, scientific research will be destroyed. I can only see a less secure, less peaceful and nastier Europe as a result. This was what it was like for centuries after all.
Click to expand...

Co-operation will be better without the shadow of integration. Being neightbours rather than reluctant lodgers.

Trade should be international, not regional. Security is NATO, rather than the EU. And scientific research is already international (only about 15% of UK research involves EU partners; much more already happens with the rest of the world)

The point of the French presidential news though is that France will be led by a more pragmatic pro-business president who agrees with the British criticism of the EU, rather than a dogmatic defender of the faith who will want to punish us for disobeying.

And this is the guy who will compete against Le Pen. This is kind of France getting a Bernie Saunders instead of a Clinton (in the sense of moderate change instead of status quo) to battle their Trump.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Co-operation will be better without the shadow of integration. Being neightbours rather than reluctant lodgers.

Trade should be international, not regional. Security is NATO, rather than the EU. And scientific research is already international (only about 15% of UK research involves EU partners; much more already happens with the rest of the world)

The point of the French presidential news though is that France will be led by a more pragmatic pro-business president who agrees with the British criticism of the EU, rather than a dogmatic defender of the faith who will want to punish us for disobeying.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with your integration comment. However security is much broader than NATO, there is cooperation on a huge level on issues such as counter terrorism and food security within the member states, The latter being an area I have worked on.

With regard to research, the Royal Society notes that more than half of the UK's collaborative papers are with EU partners.

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/po...rch-collaboration-and-researcher-mobility.pdf

With regard to your last point, a Conservative politician or worse a far right politician will care for the UK's interests only insofar as they accord with their own countries' interest. Whilst we were part of the a EU it was a common interest.
 
Last edited:
Robspur12 said:
I don't disagree with your integration comment. However security is much broader than NATO, there is cooperation on a huge level on issues such as counter terrorism and food security within the member states, The latter being an area I have worked on.

With regard to research, the Royal Society notes that more than half of the UK's collaborative papers are with EU partners.

https://royalsociety.org/~/media/po...rch-collaboration-and-researcher-mobility.pdf

With regard to your last point, a Conservative politician or worse a far right politician will Care UK's interests only insofar as they accord with their countries' interest. Whilst we were part of the a EU it was a common interest.
Click to expand...

Interpol has also been around since the 1920s. The EU's security ambitions are just a power grab

I think the 15% is of full collabroative cross-institutional funded research. Papers as a measure is a bit questionable because researchers sometimes give guest authorship to someone from a different country to broaden their readership and help their metrics. In terms of funding - RCUK, charity, global challenges, bill gates etc. dwarf H2020.

I just think we need all the moderate Eurosceptic allies we can get at the moment. I've always though the best outcome is the whole EU collapsing before we even leave and it being replace by something pre-Maastricht in style - the Council without the Commission or Parliament. It would be nice if the moderate Eurospectics could pull that off before the people resort to fascists.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Interpol has also been around since the 1920s. The EU's security ambitions are just a power grab

I think the 15% is of full collabroative cross-institutional funded research. Papers as a measure is a bit questionable because researchers sometimes give guest authorship to someone from a different country to broaden their readership and help their metrics. In terms of funding - RCUK, charity, global challenges, bill gates etc. dwarf H2020.

I just think we need all the moderate Eurosceptic allies we can get at the moment. I've always though the best outcome is the whole EU collapsing before we even leave and it being replace by something pre-Maastricht in style - the Council without the Commission or Parliament. It would be nice if the moderate Eurospectics could pull that off before the people resort to fascists.
Click to expand...
Just in terms of research mate, it is important to bear in mind that it is not just the quantitative value that we should consider but also the qualitative value of the research.
 
milo said:
This is worth reading

Chance of an 'orderly' Brexit within two years is less than 50%, expert claims

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...thin-two-years-less-than-50-percent-lord-kerr
Click to expand...
Another voice to the opinion that a deal can be done on free movement that allows us to keep trading with Europe though.

Looking more and more like EEA membership with reduced movement of people but an annual membership fee (and some help on defence/anti-terrorism) will be the answer that keeps everyone happy.
 
Last edited:
Isn't this about EFTA? Isn't ETFA how we remain in the EEA without being in the EU?

EFTA always had better principles than the EU in that it doesn't have external tariffs, so is outward looking. It already has trade agreements with Canada, Mexico, Korea, the Gulf countries, the Southern African countries etc., as well as the EU
 
EFTA has the same freedom of movement as EU - the leave campaign was focused on restricting freedom of movement, if we have to listen to "the will of the people" surely this is the line in the sand? Either that or we can ignore the will of the people and just not enact article 50.

"Free movement of persons is one of the core freedoms of the European Internal Market. This area is covered by Article 28 of the EEA Agreement, Annex V on the Free Movement of Workers and Annex VIII on the Right of Establishment. Accordingly, nationals of the EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) have the same right as EU citizens to take up an economic activity anywhere in the EU/EEA without being discriminated against on the grounds of their nationality. Equally, EU citizens have the right to work and reside in the EEA EFTA States. Non-economically active persons such as pensioners, students and family members of EEA nationals are also entitled to move and reside anywhere in the EU/EEA subject to certain conditions as set out in the relevant EU legislation"
 
r-u-s-x said:
EFTA has the same freedom of movement as EU - the leave campaign was focused on restricting freedom of movement, if we have to listen to "the will of the people" surely this is the line in the sand? Either that or we can ignore the will of the people and just not enact article 50.

"Free movement of persons is one of the core freedoms of the European Internal Market. This area is covered by Article 28 of the EEA Agreement, Annex V on the Free Movement of Workers and Annex VIII on the Right of Establishment. Accordingly, nationals of the EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) have the same right as EU citizens to take up an economic activity anywhere in the EU/EEA without being discriminated against on the grounds of their nationality. Equally, EU citizens have the right to work and reside in the EEA EFTA States. Non-economically active persons such as pensioners, students and family members of EEA nationals are also entitled to move and reside anywhere in the EU/EEA subject to certain conditions as set out in the relevant EU legislation"
Click to expand...

The EFTA countries don't like it though, especially Switzerland. By joining it we could perhaps strengthen it's ability to make its arrangements with the EU more favourable

I still think rejoining the WTO and negotiating a CETA-type deal with the EU (a BETA deal perhaps!) is the way to go
 
Gutter Boy said:
I still think rejoining the WTO and negotiating a CETA-type deal with the EU (a BETA deal perhaps!) is the way to go
Click to expand...

You are looking at least ten years after exiting for something like that. I think that first a strong business case for a move like that needs to be made, without it, the case for as close to status quo as we can get is overwhelming.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The EFTA countries don't like it though, especially Switzerland. By joining it we could perhaps strengthen it's ability to make its arrangements with the EU more favourable
Click to expand...

I haven't seen much evidence of the EEA countries wanting to exit it. Have I missed something?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back